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Dario Amodei calls OpenAI’s messaging around military deal ‘straight up lies’

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Re: Dario Amodei calls OpenAI’s messaging around military deal ‘straight up lies’

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it never made sense when Sam immediately said that they had the same constraints yet de DoW immediately agreed with that. From what I can see, OpenAI’s terms basically say “need to comply with the law”, which provides them with plenty of wiggle room with executive orders and whatnot.

I think they said they will comply with the law and Pentagon policies. And: 1. there is no law currently prohibiting autonomous weapons platforms 2. the Pentagon can create policies overnight allowing all kinds of stuff So yeah, OpenAI is going to make a lot of money from actually doing what the military asks from them.

Secret FISA court decisions are also law, the public just can’t see or challenge them. So we really have no idea what is considered lawful.

If the contract says “all lawful use” it’s a blank check to the state.

Re: Dario Amodei calls OpenAI’s messaging around military deal ‘straight up lies’

#242
post #140
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know how this story will end for Dario. See Oppenheimer, Turing, Lavoisier, Galileo, Socretes etc. Power does not reside in the hands of people with knowledge or even wealth. And most technical people have not taken a political philosophy course or even a philosphy course. The Ring of Gyges story is 4000 years old.

Oppenheimer? Really? Quoting a review of an Oppenheimer biography: “Oppenheimer was clearly an enormously charming man, but also a manipulative man and one who made enemies he need not have made. The really horrible things Oppenheimer did as a young man – placing a poisoned apple on the desk of his advisor at Cambridge, attempting to strangle his best friend – and yes, he really did those things – Monk passes off as…

The idea isn't that Oppenheimer was a saint, but that the government he served well and faithfully -- at the expense of his soul, some would argue -- turned on him viciously as soon as he dared to question their agenda.

As you suggest, it is easy to imagine Altman in the same hot seat. Never mind his sexual orientation, which the Republican theocrats will eventually use against him as surely as the knives came out for Ernst Röhm.

Re: Dario Amodei calls OpenAI’s messaging around military deal ‘straight up lies’

#243
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a reason it's unpopular. If your company makes an herbicide that happens to be very good at killing off anyone who drinks it at a high concentration in their water supply, you're saying that there should be no way for your company to resist being used for mass murder (including unavoidable collateral damage)? Also, the core mission of the military is not "killing its adversaries through any means necessary".…

>> Unpopular opinion around here, but no company should have the ability to stop the military from its core mission: killing its adevarsaries through any means necessary. > The actual military is not evil. Your conception of it is. You're right, but there's a a real question here: should a company have the ability to control or veto the decisions of the democratically-elected government? To give different hypothetica…

> You're right, but there's a a real question here: should a company have the ability to control or veto the decisions of the democratically-elected government?

I don't think "control or veto" is fair. Anthropic is not trying to prevent the US government from creating full autonomous killbots based on inadequate technology. They are only using contract law to prevent their own stuff from being used in that way.

But that aside, my opinion is that to a first order approximation, yes a company should very much be able to have say in its contract negotiations with any party including the government. It's very similar to the draft. I don't believe a draft is ethical until the situation is extreme, and there ought to be tight controls on what it takes to declare the situation to be that extreme. At any other time, nobody should be forced to join the military and shoot people, and corporations (that are made of people) should not be forced to have their product used for shooting people.

A corporation is a legal fiction to describe a group of people. Some restrictions can be placed on corporations in exchange for the benefits that come from that legal fiction, but nothing that overrides the rights of its constituent people.

Governments are made of people too. Again, a subset of people are given some powers in order to better achieve the will of the people, but with tight controls on those powers to keep the divergence to a minimum. (Of course, people will always find the cracks and loopholes and break out of their constraints, but I'm talking about design not real-world implementation here.)

So to look at your hypothetical, first I'd say it's not very different from the question of whether an individual person should be forced to personally enforce tax policy. Normally, I'd say no. There are many situations where the government needs more say and authority in such things, but that must only be achieved via representatives of the people passing laws to allow such authority. Other than that, yes: I believe a company should be able to negotiate whatever contract terms it wants. In a democracy, we are not subjects of a controlling government; the government is an extension of us.

In practical terms, if Microsoft were to insist on that contract stipulation, the government would not agree to the contract and would award its business to someone else. If the government were especially out of control and/or unethical, it might punish Microsoft with regulations or declarations of supply chain risk or whatever, but that is clearly overstepping its bounds and ought to be considered illegal if it isn't already. The usual fallback would be that the people would throw the people perpetrating that out on their asses. That's the "democratically-elected part".

Obviously, Microsoft would be stupid to insist on such a thing in their contract, and its employees would probably lose all confidence in the corporate leadership. Most likely, they'd leave and start Muckrosaft next door that rapidly develops a similar product and sells it to the government under a reasonable contract.

Basically, I'm always going to start from people first, and use organizations and laws only in order to achieve the will of the people. The fact that the people are stupid does make that harder, but the whole point of democracy is that we'll work out the right balance over time.

Re: Dario Amodei calls OpenAI’s messaging around military deal ‘straight up lies’

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd have money on OpenAI hiding behind the "all lawful use" phrasing to claim high levels of protection. He also claimed that they would build rules into the model the DoD would use, preventing misuse. Aka he claims OpenAI will quickly solve alignment and build it right in...I wouldn't hold my breath.

Most likely scenario is that if it does something “unlawful” and found out - claim that “These machines are black boxes and they don’t know what went wrong. They will set up an investigative committee and find out.”

* spawn 8 investigative agents

Re: Dario Amodei calls OpenAI’s messaging around military deal ‘straight up lies’

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are providing the software to do surveillance, They are definetly bad actors, you can dance around this all you want, but they are in it.

It is an important distinction. It’s the same with Facebook selling user data. Neither selling your data, like the carriers do, or selling the ability to target you with your data, like Facebook does, are very nice. But legally they are separate things that need to be regulated differently. As is the case with Flock and Palantir.

I'm not so sure Facebook is an apt analogy. Have we forgotten all the times Facebook has actually sold personal data?

Re: Dario Amodei calls OpenAI’s messaging around military deal ‘straight up lies’

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reportedly, Anthropic didn't know about Claude's role in capturing Maduro until they saw it on the headlines.

And why would they have an objection to that? They sold a product to a customer. They should have no business in how that customer uses their software.

So firearms dealers should be fine with their customers going on mass murder sprees?

Re: Dario Amodei calls OpenAI’s messaging around military deal ‘straight up lies’

#247
post #92

@pg on @sama: "you could parachute him into an island full of cannibals and come back in 5 years and he'd be the king." In retrospect this quote comes across as way more foreboding given what we've learned about the scale of his ambitions and his willingness to lie and bend reality to gain power. Dario on the other hand seems to have an integrity that's particularly rare in this era. I hope he remains strong in the f…

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> and they should ignore the government which ostensibly represents the people

Barely represents the people. Especially not on the issue of domestic mass surveillance and fully autonomous killing machines. Or the war in Vietnam.

Re: Dario Amodei calls OpenAI’s messaging around military deal ‘straight up lies’

#248
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I start a small business that sells Apples and the US government comes to me and says "we want to buy your apples and fire them at high speed to" these are now your words "kill adversaries through any means necessary." If I say, no, then am I stopping the military? I feel like it is reasonable that I can say "no, I don't want to sell you my apples." I cannot for the life of me figure out why that means I am stoppi…

In the context of the larger discussion, if you already sold apples to the military, you cannot go to them and say you don't like how they're using the apples you sold them.

In the context of the larger discussion, Anthropic thought of that ahead of time and put the restrictions into the contract that the government agreed to. So "already sold" is a non-sequitur; that's not the situation under discussion.

Re: Dario Amodei calls OpenAI’s messaging around military deal ‘straight up lies’

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“We’ve actually held our red lines with integrity rather than colluding with them to produce ‘safety theater’ for the benefit of employees (which, I absolutely swear to you, is what literally everyone at [the Pentagon], Palantir, our political consultants, etc, assumed was the problem we were trying to solve),” Amodei reportedly wrote. “The real reasons [the Pentagon] and the Trump admin do not like us is that we hav…

> we haven’t donated to Trump Another reason is that Sam Altman has been willing to "play ball" like providing high-profile (though meaningless) big announcements Trump likes to tout as successes. For example: > "The Stargate AI data center project worth $500 billion, announced by US President Donald Trump in January 2025, is reportedly running into serious trouble. More than a year after the announcement, the joint…

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Re: Dario Amodei calls OpenAI’s messaging around military deal ‘straight up lies’

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> OAI conditions were basically "DoW won't do anything which violates the rules DoW sets for itself." I believe this understanding is correct. The issue many people have these days with Dept. of War, and most of Trump admin is that they have little respect for laws. They only follow the ones they like and openly ignore the ones that are inconvenient. Dept of "War" should have zero problems agreeing to the two conditi…

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That's not their mission, in any country, ever.
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