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Nobody gets promoted for simplicity

terriblesoftware.org

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Re: Nobody gets promoted for simplicity

#241

Post by LPisGood »

gorbachev wrote: post #145
robertlagrant wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a similar idea once when answering a Stack Overflow question[0]. [0] https://stackoverflow.com/a/1831841/61938

Quoting your comment: "You definitely don't want to hire the person who thinks - bizarrely - that using library functions is a sign of weakness." So true...I've failed interviews, because the interviewee did see using library functions as a sign of weakness.

I think that it was probably a poorly designed question, but surely you could throw the interviewer a bone by giving a custom answer after they reject the library.

Re: Nobody gets promoted for simplicity

#243

Post by anthonypasq »

Folcon wrote: post #97
tyre wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So my cofounder was talking to Stripe about an acquihire (this was after I’d left.) As part of it, he had to do a systems design interview. He got the prompt, asked questions about throughput requirements (etc.), and said, “okay, I’d put it all in Postgres.” He was correct! Postgres could more than handle the load. He gets a call from Patrick Collison saying that he failed the interview and asking what happened. He e…

I feel like if that's the thought process, that should be stated up front There's a ton of incredibly talented neurodivergent people in our ecosystem who would trip up on that question just because of how it's framed Because how is the interviewee to know if you're testing for the technically sophisticated answer no one in their right mind would ever write or the pragmatic one?

if your brain short-circuits at ambiguity, or you're completely incapable of understanding intent and you take everything literally, that is a negative hiring signal.

Re: Nobody gets promoted for simplicity

#244

Post by dismalaf »

All this is game theory top to bottom. The only way to really quantify productivity is to look at "how much" of a thing has been created. In this case, lines of code, features, files, etc... So of course people who want to maximize their own income through promotions will also be incentivized to maximize the only quantifiable thing that they're judged on.

Re: Nobody gets promoted for simplicity

#245

Post by lo_zamoyski »

eptcyka wrote: post #144
tyre wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So my cofounder was talking to Stripe about an acquihire (this was after I’d left.) As part of it, he had to do a systems design interview. He got the prompt, asked questions about throughput requirements (etc.), and said, “okay, I’d put it all in Postgres.” He was correct! Postgres could more than handle the load. He gets a call from Patrick Collison saying that he failed the interview and asking what happened. He e…

If they don’t want to hear the correct answer, let them modify the question to exclude postgres answers. Interviews are a 2 way street, you will miss out on great candidates by being this stupid.

On the one hand, interviewers can suck. They can be uninterested in understanding and embrace instead the role of a trigger-happy interrogator looking not for a good response - something that may very well require effort and considering new ideas on the part of the interviewer - but an excuse to cross you off the list. The interview begins to look like a game of "Guess what I'm thinking". Interviews should simulate a colleague asking you for help.

On the other hand, interviewees can give poor answers with no explanation. The interviewer should press for an explanation in those cases, of course, but perhaps some are trying to see if the interviewee instinctively provides at least some basic rationale behind the answer without having to be prodded each time, in which case it is a matter of communication habits and skills. Communication is essential, and it is under-emphasized and under-taught in so-called 'STEM' curricula.

Re: Nobody gets promoted for simplicity

#246

Post by SoftTalker »

The example in the story seems, if I may, "too simple."

Rarely have I seen an actually straightforward, simple feature that can be done in a day used as the basis to spin up a 3-week mini-project with a complicated new architecure.

What happens is a complicated-sounding feature is requested, and some devs will just take it literally and implement it, maybe along with some amount of "future-proofing" that logically follows because the spec is poorly scoped.

Other devs will spend some time thinking about it, realize that there is a really a simple requirement at the core of the request, and it only sounds complex because it was vaguely specified (or maybe these days an LLM was used to write the spec, and its vomit was copy-pasted verbatim). They just implement the simple thing that is the actual need.

This is one place where the agile/scrum practice of planning poker can help. You get a few smart people in a room, and discuss the story and its requirements. Hopefully someone will throw out a low number of points and say "isn't this simply asking for..."

Over my career, most of the complicated code I have written is no longer running. What is still running after 10 years? Postgres (or more broadly, a relational database). Fad frameworks or architectures come and go pretty quickly, they don't end up working as advertised, and it's on to the next thing. I no longer want to spend time in this hamster wheel churning out complicated code that will only end up as next year's tech debt.

Re: Nobody gets promoted for simplicity

#247

Post by jsiepkes »

I have a story about this; People had an HSM (in USB key form) which needed to be shared. The question came to create some elaborate piece of software for lending to prevent people from accidentally leaving it in their pockets and accidentally going home with it (which had happened a couple of times).

Instead I went to the hardware store across the street and bought the biggest (and cheapest) screwdriver I could find and attached it with some cord to the HSM. They never lost it afterwards.

Re: Nobody gets promoted for simplicity

#248

Post by munchbunny »

bilsbie wrote: post #73

I had an interview question. What would you do if two different people were emailing a spreadsheet back and forth to track something? I said I’d move them to google sheets. There was about five minutes of awkwardness after that as I was interviewing for software developer. I was supposed to talk about what kind of tool I’d build. I found it kind of eye opening but I’m still not sure what the right lesson to learn was…

Having been both the interviewer and the candidate in this kind of situation, this is really a big interviewer training failure.

The general way to handle this as an interviewer is really simple: acknowledge that the interviewee gave a good answer, but ask that for the purposes of evaluating their technical design skills that you'd like for them to design a new system/code a new implementation to solve this problem.

If the candidate isn't willing to suspend disbelief for the exercise, then you can consider that alongside all of the other signals your interviewer team gets about the candidate. I generally take it as a negative signal, not because I need conformance, but because I need someone who can work through honest technical disagreements.

As a candidate, what's worked for me before was to ask the interviewer if they'd prefer that I pretend ____ doesn't exist and come up with a new design, but it makes me question whether I want to join that team. IMO it's the systems design equivalent of the interviewer arguing with you about your valid algorithm because it's not the one the interviewer expects.

Re: Nobody gets promoted for simplicity

#249

Post by sovietswag »

bilsbie wrote: post #73

I had an interview question. What would you do if two different people were emailing a spreadsheet back and forth to track something? I said I’d move them to google sheets. There was about five minutes of awkwardness after that as I was interviewing for software developer. I was supposed to talk about what kind of tool I’d build. I found it kind of eye opening but I’m still not sure what the right lesson to learn was…

Ha! I just had a debate about this with my friend. A certain ferry company uses a big Google Sheet to track where all of its vessels are currently docked in their home port, as well as which employee is assigned to which vessel for the day, etc (it's very information dense with color coding, and employees check it daily to get their vessel assignment). My friend thought this was completely unacceptable for a big company, and that they should build a bespoke software for this purpose. I think that it was a brilliant idea to use Google Sheets, it already solves all of the difficult problems and obviates the need to have an inhouse software development team or an expensive contract. I buried my hubris deep underground
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