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America's pensions can't beat Vanguard but they can close a hospital

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Re: America's pensions can't beat Vanguard but they can close a hospital

#241

Post by lokar »

Spivak wrote: post #134
p_j_w wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your solution means that only the wealthy can attend university, someone who grew up poor wouldn’t stand a chance.

Your argument is basically that current university costs are intrinsic and can't possibly be reduced but we know that isn't true. We have not two generations ago people paying for their college tuition with money from their part time jobs. My grandpa paid his way to a PhD as a line cook. Got no financial support from family who were only slightly above dirt poor. Like I don't want to be completely reductive but a goo…

My PhD program, in CS (top 20 school), for an American, was basically free back in the early 2000s. At times it seemed like there were more fellowships than students. I'm not sure if that has changed.

Re: America's pensions can't beat Vanguard but they can close a hospital

#242

Post by zvqcMMV6Zcr »

munk-a wrote: post #29
budududuroiu wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im gonna speculate they were referring to the part of private equity where you buy businesses to load them up with debt to buy more businesses ad nauseum

I have no idea why leveraged buyouts are legal. What a bizarre mechanism for acquisition that feels so easy to just shut down with a relatively simple rule. Restricting a previously purchased business from taking out debt feels harder to regulate, but someone smart could probably figure out a few good rules to stop the majority of abuses.

Do you think non-recourse mortgage (the dominant type in USA) also should be banned? VC finds a bank that borrows them money to buy X, with X as collateral. It is exactly the same. The mass selloff of assets and absurd cost-cutting is caused by new owners not giving a damn about the future of acquired company, its workers nor clients - it has nothing to do with leveraged buyout itself.

Re: America's pensions can't beat Vanguard but they can close a hospital

#243

Post by cj »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #228
cj wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine a world where lenders charged different interest rates depending on the risk profile of each school. Lower interest rates for schools where graduates repay their debt, higher interest for schools where many people default. Assuming it wouldn’t disproportionately affect disadvantaged populations, that could be an interesting way to incentivize schools to get their shit together and prepare students for startin…

That effect would be drowned out by all the people defaulting en masse because getting out of a six figure unsecured debt is worth more than a temporary hit to your credit score.

If that’s true, why isn’t everyone already doing it? Especially if 87% of student loans are forgiven during bankruptcy - maybe people just aren’t aware it’s possible.

Re: America's pensions can't beat Vanguard but they can close a hospital

#244

Post by lokar »

cogman10 wrote: post #83
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A reasonable option. But was that on the table? Or was "just student loan forgiveness with no change to the system" what was being proposed? And if that was the proposal, would that be better or worse than the current status quo?

Healthcare is in exactly the same boat. A major part of why it's so expensive is because of government subsidies to private healthcare insurance. No or little public option is exactly what allows insurance companies to go hog wild on their premiums. The ACA subsidies are simply a bandaid on a broken system which allows insurance to further break the system as they adapt to what people are willing to pay for a necessi…

Healthcare is really complicated. No one factor makes up a majority of the excess (compared to other rich nations) cost.

The ACA is a bandaid, and may be making things worse over time, at least in some areas. But Americans don't see to have the appetite to really change anything. Probably because most voters are insulated from this by good (enough) employees plans.

Re: America's pensions can't beat Vanguard but they can close a hospital

#245

Post by irishcoffee »

TimorousBestie wrote: post #218
irishcoffee wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What are the second-order effects of a subclass of citizens permanently encumbered by debt that (with rare exceptions) cannot be discharged through bankruptcy? A harsh lesson in personal responsibility. If you went to an out-of-state school to major in criminology hoping to be the next CSI, and you borrowed 180k to do it, you've learned a valuable lesson. Don't give me "they're only kids, they aren't able to make t…

> Don't give me "they're only kids, they aren't able to make these decisions!" You’re responding to something you imagined I said. We’re talking about economic effects here, not your vengeful little morality play.

Just heading it off, not imagining anything.

Re: America's pensions can't beat Vanguard but they can close a hospital

#246

Post by Someone1234 »

happyopossum wrote: post #155
Someone1234 wrote: post #77

> student loan relief inflationary and unfair The problem with US student loans is usury . Student Loan interest rates in the US can be as high as 9-13%. The government can borrow at 3.36% which even if we assume a 20% overhead is 4.03% to the borrower. Other countries/governments do a scheme similar to this, and it makes repayment realistic . I'm certain someone will respond telling me the difference between Subsidi…

Your argument kinda falls apart with the observation that private loans often have waaaay lower interest rates than federal ones... Typical private loans start in the 3% range, vs 6.4 for the lowest Federal ones.

Can you think to the "3% range" private student loans? But regardless, my "argument" is for lower, fairer, interest rates that students are actually expected (and can realistically) repay. One where profit isn't made.

Who makes the profit is largely irrelevant; the students suffer the same either way.

Re: America's pensions can't beat Vanguard but they can close a hospital

#247

Post by AnthonyMouse »

derekp7 wrote: post #210
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why can I, as an 18 year old, sign for a loan that _cannot_ be forgiven, graduate into a crashed economy, and still be held accountable for choices that impact me when I only had a small part in them? Because you took the money promising to pay it back, spent it on something you wanted, and now it's gone and someone has to pay the money you spent. It's like saying why can I, as an 18 year old, purposely drive a car…

Except that no one has been preaching at you for your entire academic life that you MUST drive a car into someone's house at 18 in order to be able to get more than a minimum wage hard labor job.

But now we've arrived at the source of the trouble. Why are people being preached at to get a degree in subterranean cat washing instead of engineering or nursing, or for that matter forego a degree and pursue a trade?

Re: America's pensions can't beat Vanguard but they can close a hospital

#248

Post by angmarsbane »

BobaFloutist wrote: post #213
TimorousBestie wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the second-order effects of a subclass of citizens permanently encumbered by debt that (with rare exceptions) cannot be discharged through bankruptcy? Perhaps your analysis of second-order effects is not thorough and complete? Have you really considered all of them?

The reason that you can't (default) discharge student loan debt in bankruptcy is that your degree can't be seized and sold off, so there's a pretty weak incentive to not declare bankruptcy as soon as you're handed your degree.

What if a degree could be seized? For example, what if bankruptcy courts could require a debtor to stop "representing themselves" as having a degree as a condition for discharging debt. If a court revoked a degree, it would effectively reset the graduate to the status of a dropout removing a significant amount of the degree's value (I know knowledge has its own value, but credentialism is a big part of a degree's value too).Universities already have the infrastructure to flag students. For example, many institutions withhold official transcripts or diplomas for academic fraud, moral infringements etc. Could this create enough of an incentive to pay back loans and not declare bankruptcy?

Re: America's pensions can't beat Vanguard but they can close a hospital

#249

Post by epistasis »

cogman10 wrote: post #83
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A reasonable option. But was that on the table? Or was "just student loan forgiveness with no change to the system" what was being proposed? And if that was the proposal, would that be better or worse than the current status quo?

Healthcare is in exactly the same boat. A major part of why it's so expensive is because of government subsidies to private healthcare insurance. No or little public option is exactly what allows insurance companies to go hog wild on their premiums. The ACA subsidies are simply a bandaid on a broken system which allows insurance to further break the system as they adapt to what people are willing to pay for a necessi…

A big part of that is also the transfers between private insurance and Medicare, with health care providers accepting far lower rates for Medicare and then subsidizing operations with the rates charged to private insurers. Hospital administration is pretty hellish. As is administering payments!

Any functioning health care system is going to have a "band-aid" exactly ACA subsidies: make sure that those with the lowest incomes can still afford health care. Something in between Medicaid and the full cost. But as we rein in the costs and get healthcare to be a smaller fraction of GDP, the size of the band-aid can shrink.

Re: America's pensions can't beat Vanguard but they can close a hospital

#250

Post by AnthonyMouse »

cj wrote: post #243
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That effect would be drowned out by all the people defaulting en masse because getting out of a six figure unsecured debt is worth more than a temporary hit to your credit score.

If that’s true, why isn’t everyone already doing it? Especially if 87% of student loans are forgiven during bankruptcy - maybe people just aren’t aware it’s possible.

"Possible" and "easy" are two different things. 87% is of the people who applied for it, but they would be the ones most likely to have it granted because there is little reason to pay lawyers to file a form which is likely to be rejected. But the more you relax the requirements, the more people do it, which is of course the problem.
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