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East Germany balloon escape

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Re: East Germany balloon escape

#241

Post by Dansvidania »

qcnguy wrote: post #231
Squarex wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only speak of Czechoslovakia, but from 1968 to 1989 there was no ideology. After the soviet occupation, there was normalization era, that was explicitly about compliance with the regime, not about believe in communism. I agree though that it is more complex, but for some reason, Czechoslovakia wanted to keep all the people and exploit their work, while Venezuela and Iran seems to let the people go in exchange f…

No communist ideology? What was the regime demanding compliance with, do you think? The normalization era was a return to Marxism-Leninism, not a departure from it. Czechoslovakia in that period had one party politics, justified because multiparty democracy was "bourgeois deviation". It was a state run centrally planned economy, because the left wing don't believe in capitalism or free markets. Officially unemploymen…

Are you Czech or Slovak to be able to speak with this much confidence?

I have spent 13 years in Czech Republic, admittedly after the curtain fell, and I can tell you for a fact that they were “communist” because otherwise tanks.

You can see the relationship they had with the ideology in pretty much any sliver of cultural material from the period and after.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#242

Post by [deleted] »

qcnguy wrote: post #233
honzabe wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently read a book of interviews with people who escaped from North Korea, and what shocked me was the discovery that the relatives of those who escaped are often executed (publicly) and that even children are executed in North Korea. We live in a terrible world. I mean... you expect a book from North Korea to contain terrible things, but somehow it was even worse than I expected.

Left wing thought doesn't contain any philosophy of limitations on state power, so under a left wing regime there is no limit to what it might do. No matter how terrible something is, if it can be imagined they will consider implementing it. To avoid that outcome there has to be an understanding of the flawed nature of government, and from that an ideological commitment to a state limited in power and role.

[deleted]

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#243

Post by zweifuss »

immibis wrote: post #87
mothballed wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the form of authoritarian. The two of the richest countries on a GDP PPP basis are Lichtenstein and Singapore, also some of the most free economically, yet they could probably be described as benevolent authoritarian systems. Dubai further behind, although some similar points. It seems authoritarians that know how to use their authority to force the populace to accept (some forms of) freedom can perform be…

Aren't those just plain old tax havens?

Yes and no.

They all have a very solid industrial base, like 30% to 50% of the economy, with ~50% of workers living abroad (not fully part of the welfare state). Comparatively high R&D. Low taxes.

And plain tax evasion is now illegal, but those countries are still an important stop to hide money elsewhere.

But the main secret sauce is a flexible fast legal system. Stability, low crime, and less gridlock in the legislature when the need for change is realized.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#244

Post by elzbardico »

immibis wrote: post #85
elzbardico wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably this is an also big component in the notorious German preference for cash over cards.

That was caused by interchange fees, and it has disappeared now.

Are you german? Most of my german friends tell me it is because after the experiences of nazism and comunism (in the GDR), most germans value their privacy a lot.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#245

Post by mkl »

Nora23 wrote: post #204

How long did it take them to plan this escape?

From the second sentence, "over a year and a half of preparations". The third paragraph gives a starting agreement date of 7 March 1978, and the successful flight was 16 September 1979.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#246

Post by api »

Other than North Korea, are there still countries that are literal prisons that you can’t leave?

It’s astounding to me that this was a thing. The fact that it’s so rare now is one of the quiet ways we have in fact progressed.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#247

Post by honzabe »

elbci wrote: post #207
tirant wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communism and socialism have always looked good when compared to the principles of other economic and political doctrines: - No poor people; everyone supported by the State; Everyone works for the common good; shared resources no matter how lucky or unlucky you are… From an intentional and moral perspective, nothing can beat it. However it fails and will always fail because of a couple of important reasons: - it requ…

Those 50-60-70+% of people in former communist states don't "romanticize", they just remember being better. Utopia - no, but better than capitalism. Without an example of a communist state shielded from constant attacks, sabotage and sanctions from the dominant capitalist we will never know how good it could get. We just know the imperfect as it was, it was still better.

> Those 50-60-70+% of people in former communist states don't "romanticize", they just remember being better.

Where did you get those numbers? I remember reading about one survey where the number of people with previous regime ‘nostalgia’ was around 50%. That survey had flawed methodology, and the results were probably mostly about nostalgia related to the times when we were young, and our backs did not hurt (obviously, Russian bots in my country keep blabbering about it ad nauseam as if it were actually about the quality of the old regime).

Let’s focus on the numbers that matter - the election numbers: in the 2025 elections in my country (Czechia), communists did not even get over the 5% necessary to get to the parliament. So, I guess what people actually remember here is communism not being better.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#248

Post by qcnguy »

m4nu3l wrote: post #89
mothballed wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the form of authoritarian. The two of the richest countries on a GDP PPP basis are Lichtenstein and Singapore, also some of the most free economically, yet they could probably be described as benevolent authoritarian systems. Dubai further behind, although some similar points. It seems authoritarians that know how to use their authority to force the populace to accept (some forms of) freedom can perform be…

What I find confusing about this comment is that to me, authoritarian and libertarian are opposites, but have only to do with individual freedoms, not the political system. With these definitions, you can have a democratic or non-democratic system, and both can give rise to libertarian or authoritarian societies. Democracies tend to produce more libertarian systems than dictatorships, but only to some extent, and in…

There have been such dictators in the past. Singapore is one example. Arguably the British Empire was libertarian by the standards of its time (and empires).

Perhaps the least recognized example is America. The Constitution imposes libertarianism on the population against majority will. You can't change the constitution with a 50%+1 vote, so it forces freedom of speech and other rights on people who might otherwise easily vote to get rid of them. There's no one man enforcing the constitution, just a general agreement to obey SCOTUS.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#249

Post by qcnguy »

Terr_ wrote: post #55
mothballed wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's the case the theocratic monarchy in UAE takes the cake, I think, although maybe there are similar amounts elsewhere. Pretty much all the highest % immigration countries are monarchy that I can think of, since in those country another tax payer is an easy win and immigrants that cause problem can be instantly booted so there is very little downside to taking anybody with $1 or a job who cares to come. Top Co…

I think "immigrants" is the wrong statistic here, since it includes workers with no path to citizenship. (In some cases, they can't leave because their employer stole their passport.) It confuses "this is a good place to resettle" with "here I can arbitrage higher wages in order to send money back home."

You're still an immigrant even if you can't become a citizen.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#250

Post by vlowrian »

qcnguy wrote: post #232
vlowrian wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are two very different things. Significant parts of the German government and many German members of the European Parliament are proponents of Chat Control. The general population, however, still has a strong desire for privacy and a deep fear of surveillance and data collection, shaped by historical experiences with two dictatorships (the Nazi era and the GDR). That said, there is a substantial disconnect betw…

In practice the average German voter is still supporting the coalition against the AfD despite that the coalition is implementing Soviet-like policies. They talk constantly about banning the most popular political party, for example, and they regularly imprison or fine people for anti-left political opinions. Germans who aren't actively supporting the AfD should feel no sense of moral superiority, there simply isn't…

> and they regularly imprison or fine people for anti-left political opinions

Do you have any sources to substantiate this claim? In particular, including under which law a prison sentence or fine was imposed for the expression of a constitutionally protected political opinion.

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