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Gas Town Decoded

alilleybrinker.com

241–245 of 245 posts

Re: Gas Town Decoded

#241
post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What evidence will convince you?

Any sort of evidence! I see none! It's not really a new thing to have no evidence of productivity gains when it comes to software development tools. Some feel like vim is a huge productivity boost and some don't. Some believe rust is amazing, some hate it. It's really hard to measure these things.

Here’s a professional developer who built a product used across the planet daily saying they built a feature for said product, and then asked AI to build the same feature based on the design doc: the AI succeeded and did the same work in minutes: https://antirez.com/news/158

You could always test this yourself. Draw up a design doc for a problem, and implement it. Then ask an AI to do the same thing. Compare your time.

Re: Gas Town Decoded

#242
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apply your own "functional literacy". I made a clarification that those outside of an industry have to separate the opinions of professionals and hype artists. The irony of your comment would be salient, if it didn't feel like I was speaking with a child. This conversation is over, there's no reason to continue speaking with you as long you maintain this obnoxious attitude coupled with bad reading comprehension.

It's a hillarious attempt to save face. "Separate opinions of professionals" etc. Here's Ryan Dahl, cofounder of Deno, creator of Node.js tweeting today: --- start quote --- This has been said a thousand times before, but allow me to add my own voice: the era of humans writing code is over. Disturbing for those of us who identify as SWEs, but no less true. That's not to say SWEs don't have work to do, but writing syn…

Yes, my point is that industry professionals are re-calibrating based on the last year of agentic coding advancements, and that this is different from hype men on YouTube from 1-2 years ago claiming that they don't have to write code anymore.

Congratulations, now you're starting to understand! :)

Re: Gas Town Decoded

#243
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lol. "random leftists" First two come directly from OpenAI, Anthropic and others Last one is literally made rounds even on HN e.g. Klarna bringing back their support staff after they tried to replace them with AI.

Last one is irrelevant. Of course some companies are miscalculating. OpenAI never claimed they had achieved AGI internally. Sam was very obviously joking, and despite the joke being so obvious he even clarified hours later. >In a post to the Reddit forum r/singularity, Mr Altman wrote “AGI has been achieved internally”, referring to artificial general intelligence – AI systems that match or exceed human intelligence.…

The insecurity is mind-boggling. So many engineers afraid to touch this stuff for one reason or another.

I pride myself in being an extremely capable engineer who can solve any problem when given the right time and resources.

But now, random unskilled people can do in an afternoon what it might have taken me a week or more to do before. Of course, I know their work might be filled with major security issues, or terrible architectural decisions and hidden tech debt that will eventually grind development to a complete halt.

I can be negative and point out these issues, or I can adopt these tools myself, and have the skilled hand required to keep things on rails. Now what I can do in a week cannot be matched by an unskilled engineer in an afternoon, because we have the same velocity multipliers.

I remember being such a purist in my youth that I didn't even want autocomplete or intellisense, because I feared it would affect my recall or stunt my growth. How far we have come. How I code has changed completely in the last year.

I code 8-20 hours a day, all day. I actively work on several projects at once, flipping between contexts to check results, review code, iterate on design/implementation, hand off new units of work to various agents. It is not a perfect process, I am constantly screaming and pulling my hair out over how stupid and forgetful and stubborn these tools can be sometimes. My output has still dramatically increased, and I have plenty extra time to ensure the quality of the code is secure and good enough.

I've given up on expecting perfection from code I didn't write myself; but what else is new? Any skilled individual who has managed engineers before knows you have to get over this quickly and accept that code from other engineers will not match your standards 100%.

Your role is to develop and enforce guidelines and processes which ensure that any code which hits production has been thoroughly reviewed, made secure and performant. There might be some stupid inline metacomments from the LLM that slip through, but if your processes are tight enough, you can produce much more code with correct interfaces, even if the insides aren't perfect. Even then, targeted refactors are more painless than ever.

Engineers who only know how to code, and at a relatively mediocre level, which I imagine is the majority of engineers now in the field who got into it because of the money, are probably feeling the heat and worried that they won't be employable. I do not share that fear, provided that anyone at all is employable.

When running a business, you'll still need to split the workload, especially as keeping pace with competition becomes an increasingly brutal exercise. The money is still in the industry, and people with money will still find ways to use it to develop an edge.

Re: Gas Town Decoded

#244
post #195
post #185

Gas town and the like all basically sound to me like, "AI is amazing! Ok, actually it isn't very good, but maybe we can just use more AI with our AI and then it'll be good!" And I'm not surprised at all to learn that this path took us to a "Maintenance Manager Checker Agent." I wonder what he'll call the inevitable Maintenance Manager Checker Agent Checker Agent? Maybe I've been in this game too long, but I've encoun…

It's the Jarvis Effect. For years we had people trying to make voice agents, like Iron Man's Jarvis, a thing . You had people super bought into the idea that if you could talk to your computer and say "Jarvis, book me a flight from New York to Hawaii" and it would just do it just like the movies, that was the future , that was sci-fi , it was awesome . But it turns out that voice sucks as a user interface. The only t…

This is confusing. Voice is not a UI, it's an input device. When I call my bank and have to input some numbers into the automated system, I prefer to say them than to type them. The phone menu system is the UI, fingers or voice are two different input modes for the same UI.

The problem with alexa booking tickets is not the use of my voice but that there are a lot of decisions (comparison shopping, seat selection etc) to be made. Alexa can't read my mind to make the trade-offs I would make, although it could ask me 10 zillion questions. The difference between voice/ears and fingers/eyes is the bandwidth of information transfer, but also the availability of the tools. Hands and eyes may be busy as in your car example, but they are also busy if I'm carrying a toddler around the house or can't be bothered to reach into my pocket or am already using my phone for something else (game, video etc). So voice is a good option for many tasks. And LLMs/agents do have the potential to make more tasks (simple ones, not booking tickets) accessible to voice since "AI as UI" is where it holds the most potential IMHO. And that's great because we need all the help we can get to avoid taking our phones out of our pockets and getting sucked into random tangents like HN comment threads just bc we wanted to check the weather

Re: Gas Town Decoded

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you give every idiot a worldwide heard voice, you will hear every idiot from the whole world. If you give every idiot a tool to make programs, you will see a lot of programs made by idiots.

Steve Yegge is not an idiot or a bad programmer. Possibly just hypomanic at most. And a good, entertaining writer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Yegge Gas Town is ridiculous and I had to uninstall Beads after seeing it only confuse my agents, but he's not completely insane or a moron. There may be some kernels of good ideas inside of Gas Town which could be extracted out into a better system.

Even if I looked past the overwrought, self-indulgent Mad Max LARP (and the poor judgment evidenced by the prioritization of world-building minutia while the basic architecture is imploding), the cost of finding those kernels in a monstrosity of this size negates any ROI. 189k lines in four weeks will inevitably surface interesting pattern combinations — that's not merit, that's sample size. You might as well search the Library of Babel; at least the patterns are guaranteed to exist there.

The other problem with that reasoning is that whatever patterns ARE interesting are more likely to be new to AI-assisted coding generally – meaning a cleaner system built for the same use case will surface them without the archaeological dig, just by virtue of its builder having the skill to design it (and crucially, being more interested in designing it than in creating AI drawings of polecats in steampunk-adjacent garb).

I'm also a bit curious about at which point you start considering someone an idiot when they keep making objectively idiotic moves – the whimsical Disneyfied presentation, the "please don't download this" false modesty while keeping the repo public, the inexplicable code growth all come from the same place. They're not separate quirks: they're the same inability to edit, the same need for immediate audience validation, the same substitution of volume and narrative for actual engineering discipline. Someone who thinks "Polecats" and "Guzzoline" are good names for production abstractions is not suddenly going to develop the editorial rigor to scrap a codebase and rebuild.

Which is why it's worth remembering that Yegge's one successful shipped project was Grok, an internal tool used by Google engineers, so Yegge seems to have bought his own hype, missing how much of that project's success was likely subsidized by its user base comprising people skilled enough to route around its limitations.

These days he seems to be building for developers in general, but critically might be missing that actual developers immediately clock the project's ineptitude + Yegge's immature, narcissistic prioritization and peace the fuck out. The end result of this is filtering for the self-described vibe-coder types, people already Dunning-Krugered enough to believe you can prompt your way into a complete system without knowing how to reason about that system in order to guide the AI.

Which, fittingly, is how you end up with users who can't even follow "please don't download this yet".

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