Live data from Hacker News

Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

barchart.com

241–250 of 527 posts

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#241
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The old chestnut that Henry Ford didn't actually say comes to mind though: "I wanted to pay my workers enough so they could afford the cars they were building." If they were making them in the US, Tim Cook could pay them enough to afford an iPhone on a payment plan with Verizon or AT&T. Even if he didn't want to, there's a federal minimum wage US workers employers are required to pay. What's frustrating is the invest…

> That money could have been spent on America This is wishful thinking, and similar to how how video game producers think if they stop N people from pirating a game, there will be N more copies of the game sold. No, instead of that the game will be played less. And analogously, less iPhones would be produced. You could argue that less iPhones would be good for the world, but that’s orthogonal to the topic.

You're overestimating the proportion of the price attributed to labor that goes into an iPhone. The reason that production is offshored is to shave off a few percentage points. The price difference is almost nothing to the buyer, but a lot to the owners of Apple.

iPhones have nothing to do with videogames. They are material objects, not zero marginal cost copies.

edit: and the point is that, across the economy, it is very good for labor. While the iPhone's cost would rise a little bit nominally, it wouldn't rise as a portion of income, which is the only important number. The retail price would probably rise a bit more than that, but that's because it is a luxury good and its price would rise as incomes rose.

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Labour is still going to be cheaper in offshore countries simply because of purchasing power parity. Even good conditions and everything in country like India paying them around 10-30k$ is seriously really really good (source: I live there) and its english speaking and well integrated etc. I saw another comment which mentioned that just merely healthcare in america can cost around 10k$/year So Labour should be empowe…

I think it's hard to overstate how big of a deal "Labour needs to be empowered globally" is. Think of it as two huge reservoirs of water, one of which is at a higher altitude. If you connect them with a pipe, they will inevitably tend to equalize - this is what is happening with globalization. It's good for the developing world but bad for the developed. The labor class not only needs to demand better working conditi…

I doubt that an equilibrium can ever be reached tho.

The biggest issue is that even if one provides better working conditions, but also standards of living, environment regulations, housing, etc. etc

Even then, there would still be an imbalance and equilibrium would still not be reached simply because of power purchasing parity and other factors.

Plus another issue is corruption. There are rules and laws already in place but corruption takes their way

Also another thing but corruption can actually also take regulations and hijack them and actually penalize things simply for reducing competition etc.

Corruptions also the reason why we have enough food to feed the world but corruptions in the way and I am not sure if there is a way to solve it

y'know I have this pet theory that corruption is everywhere but the incentives of corruption/ways changes.

In the UK, the prices of rent are so damn high, this is a developed country.

In America, corruption takes place in the form of lobbying and the coupling of politics and finance and also the immense parity of money between the average person and the CEO salary's ratio being one of the highest and the shrewd incentives being one causing these issues in the first places being written almost in law, CEO's of major companies will fire 10_000's of people or more in a blink of an eye.

China, although secret, In my opinion has corruption inside the country as well from a more political standpoint as well

In India, there are some regulations and systems meant for good but people skirt through them via corruption.

So I don't know but to me corruption feels natural in the sense that altruism can't be the only gene and biology would dictate maliciousness to be present

This does make me sad thinking about it but I think that the nash equilibrium is unfair. This is how the system works, this is a cycle and Countries Like India/China once were super rich then became poor then are getting on their path again

At the end of the day, the person speaking about this Jensuan huang is corrupt as well selling AI hype in the first place, spiking actual prices of actual goods people buy thus contributing in inflation but also that some people accuse them of even writing this statement as a way to people please

When I had thought about it previously, I think um the best things we can do is probably reduce the incentives of corruption and then the nature of good ideas would take prevalance.

It's also just not a developing vs developed countries thing anymore as I said. We see in the news cycle how much blatantly corrupt America's current administration is becoming.

At the end of the day, facing reality is hard but that's the only way we can really put real change in the world.

if you have some thoughts about how to counter corruption in your idea/ actually creating incentives to be good and not corrupt or even malicious compliance in your idea and I am listening and I'd love to discuss more about it.

I wish there was less corruption but I am starting to think that incentives are set this way to help corruption and those themselves might've been/were brought by corruption themselves as one wrote on HN once that corruption brings more corruption , so how can one stop this vicious cycle? Because if that happens, I am telling you that America has enough money but the corrupt forces distribute them in a concentrated manner, even solving that problem to me feels like something which can help empower the labour globally

perhaps the rich can be taxed for what they deserve and that money can then be spent in developing countries labour class in your idea? This to me feels the most okay way to help but the problem is, nobody's taxing the rich/its hard because of all the loopholes/malicious legal compliance in many places.

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#243
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The old chestnut that Henry Ford didn't actually say comes to mind though: "I wanted to pay my workers enough so they could afford the cars they were building." If they were making them in the US, Tim Cook could pay them enough to afford an iPhone on a payment plan with Verizon or AT&T. Even if he didn't want to, there's a federal minimum wage US workers employers are required to pay. What's frustrating is the invest…

> That money could have been spent on America This is wishful thinking, and similar to how how video game producers think if they stop N people from pirating a game, there will be N more copies of the game sold. No, instead of that the game will be played less. And analogously, less iPhones would be produced. You could argue that less iPhones would be good for the world, but that’s orthogonal to the topic.

Interesting take. I would happily give up my iPhone if, instead, the US Department of Education got an extra $55 billion/year and US would pay people to go to college.

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#244

Ross Perot in 1992 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRr60nmDyu4 We have shipped millions of jobs overseas, and ... a strange situation, we have a process in Washington where after you serve for a while, you can cash in, become a foreign lobbyist. We have got to stop sending jobs overseas. You're paying 12, 13, 14 an hour for factory workers and you can move your factory South of the Border, pay a dollar an hour for yo…

Side point about this HN post "Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring" currently 3 hours and 129 points Why does it seem like it is getting pushed down relative to other posts that have less upvotes and with longer times? Here are some posts that are currently higher ranked. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46445412 currently 8 hours and 82 points https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46…

Doesn’t HN have some system for lowering threads that have, like, acrimonious voting patterns? Under the assumption that they are producing more entrenched argument, instead of informing discussion.

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The jobs also generally suck. I've worked a wide array of blue collar jobs and manufacturing I always found some of the worst, even worse than stuff like general labor building houses or working on fishing trawlers in the Bering sea because at least that stuff wasn't nearly as rote. You stand at a machine doing the same fucking thing over and over. Do one thing wrong, your finger gets chopped up -- you think that sou…

There are some people who like the rote work. You and I may not but some of the people I talk to like that they can basically "turn their thinking off" and get paid. >Do one thing wrong, your finger gets chopped up This should not be possible in the US. OSHA is still in existence(you could argue that the future state is unknown) https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/regulations/standardnumber/19... >1910.212(a)(1) >Types of…

I've worked some in metal fabrication and supported some light industry. if you think anyone in a normal business in the US that hires less than 50 hourly people has even read the OSHA regs, you're completely unconnected with the reality

we really do call those stamping machines 'finger eaters'

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#246
post #36

There are so many underlying changes to the established relationship between Labor and Capital in the US that would be a necessary part of keeping jobs here that it would effectively make us a completely different country. For example -- suppose one could snap one's fingers and "bring back" millions of manufacturing jobs. What would lead one to conclude those would be the kind of "good jobs" everyone is envisioning?…

>we have just decided that the people working those jobs are not deserving of prosperity.

We've also decided that labor needs to be taxed more heavily than capital, which is fucking stupid.

Taxing the lower end of society who actually works at a higher rate than wealthy people is just so shortsighted.

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#247
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The United States provides over 40% of the world's humanitarian aid, and spends around 1% of its budget on foreign aid, including military aid . Surveys suggest that Americans believe 20% of the federal budget is spent on foreign aid, and that 59% of Americans believe the government spends too much on foreign aid" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_14169

Wikipedia isn’t a primary source. Your entire point can be disregarded.

Your unwillingness to read the primary sources linked in the Wikipedia article because they show how you're flat out wrong indicates that your entire thought process can be disregarded at no cost.

https://www.euronews.com/2025/01/29/us-freeze-on-foreign-aid...

https://usafacts.org/answers/how-much-foreign-aid-does-the-u...

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my main arguments for a universal health care scheme in the united states is how horrendously expensive, for employers, health care is. Lets totally ignore efficacy, moral arguments, expense for the patient, etc. If you are a company in the US a large percentage of the effective compensation of employees is healthcare. A moderately good PPO is like ~$10k+ a year per employee. You can pay workers in some other…

The irony of the situation when you realize that you can probably get healthcare yourself in India (not sure about other countries) but for even a very good healthcare program to be around 25$ per month And that 10k$/year can be considered middle class / heck I can even argue just slightly above middle class in India And you can actually enjoy food and a lot of things really cheap as well Usually the only problem bec…

There is no simple explanation, but an important issue is that there is no price discovery mechanism or system pressure for efficiency. You also may not know that the US healthcare system is also an elaborate jobs program. Walk into any hospital and you will see 5-10 mostly young women doing basically nothing. I don’t know why the powers that be decided that the US should divest itself from any useful work, but here we are. Now we’re a couple generations into this social experiment by “smart” billionaires and their courtiers, and the military industrial complex is begging the Taiwanese to hold our soft hands and teach a blossoming generation hipsters and resentful immigrants how to build the computers we invented. We had a good run, but we’re Rome circa. 400-500 AD. Don’t let the marketing in Venezuela fool you. I’m just hoping the robots give us a few more decades of working plumbing.

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Manufacturing jobs bring the entire supply chain of the manufacturer with them. The area where I live, Greenville, SC used to be the textile capital of the world and then became essentially destitute when the entire industry offshored. BMW and Michelin locating their US HQ here essentially rebuilt this entire corner of the state with jobs and associated supply chains. Now, Greenville is booming with a more diverse ec…

So European companies brought new jobs and prosperity to Greenville, SC, and the local Americans thanked Europe by voting 60% for Trump in the last election. How do you explain that? Why do the locals vote against the countries that provide them the jobs? Are you also pro-Trump because you live in that town?

HN sure does like beating up on folks in the Southern US by painting us all with the same brush, it's the worst kind of ugly.

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#250
post #36

There are so many underlying changes to the established relationship between Labor and Capital in the US that would be a necessary part of keeping jobs here that it would effectively make us a completely different country. For example -- suppose one could snap one's fingers and "bring back" millions of manufacturing jobs. What would lead one to conclude those would be the kind of "good jobs" everyone is envisioning?…

A line cook makes no more burgers per hour, a hairdresser delivers no more or better haircuts, and a daycare worker watches no more children concurrently than they could have 25 years ago. Meanwhile the Magnificent 7 have emerged. Baumol effects might have raised wages a bit, sure. How could the relative positions of these workers not fall as all these tech-enabled and scale-enabled neighbors come on to the scene? Th…

> Baumol effects might have raised wages a bit, sure. How could the relative positions of these workers not fall as all these tech-enabled and scale-enabled neighbors come on to the scene?

Supply and demand? If the population of hairdressers was small, so they could charge more and more, then their wages could keep up as a percentage. And that would be possible if for example so many people moved into high productivity work that only a small percentage remained in low automation work. But if you have a constant influx of new hairdressers or a constant influx of people willing to do low automation work, that doesn’t happen.

Post reply on HN