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Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

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Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#241

Post by solid_fuel »

philipallstar wrote: post #212
blibble wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if google's property is blocking the road, google can pay for the damage

As long as you're happy that if your property ever blocks the road, you will pay for the damage too.

> As long as you're happy that if your property ever blocks the road, you will pay for the damage too.

Pretty sure that's always the expectation? It's typical to tow illegally parked cars, smash windows to run hoses through cars blocking hydrants, etc.

The only unusual thing here would be holding a corporation to account the way we hold individuals to account.

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#242

Post by MBCook »

macintux wrote: post #231
MBCook wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think part of the problem is they’ve made it our problem. Look I like Waymo. I think they’re neat and I trust them far more than any of the other companies. But in my mind being able to handle stuff like this is just a requirement to be on the roads in any non-trivial number. Like if they had two vehicles in this happened then OK that’s a problem but it was two vehicles in an entire city. When you have enough on th…

Effectively they’ve turned any edge case into a potential city-wide problem and PR nightmare. One driver doesn’t know how to handle a power outage? It’s not news. Hundreds of automated vehicles all experience the same failure? National news.

Right. You know there are humans somewhere in the city who got confused or scared and mess up too. Maybe a young driver who is barely confident in the first place on a temporary permit, or just someone who doesn’t remember what you do and was already over-stressed.

Whatever, it happens.

This was a (totally unintentional) coordinated screw up causing problems all over as opposed to one small spot.

The scale makes all the difference.

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#243

Post by lubujackson »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #138
MBCook wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it matter? Once you’re on public roads, you need to ALWAYS fail-safe. And that means not blocking the road/intersections when something unexpected happens. If you can physically get out of the way, you need to. Period.

> Does it matter Yes. OP is inferring Waymo's internal processes from this meltdown. ("Makes me think there are likely other obvious use cases they haven’t thought about proactively either.") If Waymo literally didn't foresee a blackout, that's a systemic problem. If, on the other hand, there was some weird power and cellular meltdown that coïncided with something else, that's a fixable edge case.

The "coinciding problems" should be an assumption, not a edge case we reason away. Because black swan events are always going to have cascading issues - a big earthquake means lights out AND cell towers overloaded or out, not to mention debris in streets, etc.

What they need is a "shit is fucked fallback" that cedes control. Maybe there is a special bluetooth command any police or ambulance can send if nearby, like clear the intersection/road.

Or maybe the doors just unlock and any human can physically enter and drive the car up to X distance. To techies and lawyers it may sound impossible, but for normal humans, that certainly sounds better. Like that Mitch Hedberg joke, when an escalator is out of order it becomes stairs. When a Waymo breaks it should become a car.

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#244

Post by MBCook »

bsder wrote: post #238
wiml wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We already have a solution, it's written down in the traffic laws. If the signals fail, treat the intersection roughly like a four-way stop. Everybody learns this in drivers' ed. It's not obscure. If the cars can't follow traffic rules maybe they're not ready to be on the streets unsupervised.

The problem seems to be that the Waymo cars did exactly as you requested and treated the intersections like 4 way stops but kept getting displaced by more aggressive drivers who simply slowed and rolled. How many non-Waymo accidents happened at intersections during this time? I suspect more than zero given my experiences with other drivers when traffic lights go off. Apparently, Waymo's numbers are zero so humans are…

> The problem here is that safety and throughput are at odds. Waymo chose safety while most drivers chose throughput.

Did they? They chose their safety. I suspect the net effect of their behavior made the safety of everyone worse.

They did such a bad job of handling it people had to go around them, making things less safe.

We know what people are like. Not everyone is OK doing 2-3 mph for extended time waiting for a Waymo to feel “safe”.

Operating in a way that causes large numbers of other drivers to feel the need to bypass you is fundamentally worse.

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#245

Post by olyjohn »

scoofy wrote: post #206
moregrist wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fail-safe means "in a situation where the function fails, fail in a way that doesn't cause injury" In a very local sense, this is true. In terms of the traffic system, this can create a systemic problem if the stoppage causes a traffic jam that creates problems for emergency vehicles. Thus it is a _different_ failure mode. If someone stops in the middle of traffic because they’re lost, their GPS went out, or they r…

Traffic doesn’t cause injury. Why are we concerned about traffic flow in a blackout situation. The cars stopped at intersections, EMS could use the oncoming lanes. I’m not seeing how it’s not a fail safe, you’re describing it as not being fail-ideal, and I would agree.

One way roads exist.

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#246

Post by MBCook »

lubujackson wrote: post #243
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does it matter Yes. OP is inferring Waymo's internal processes from this meltdown. ("Makes me think there are likely other obvious use cases they haven’t thought about proactively either.") If Waymo literally didn't foresee a blackout, that's a systemic problem. If, on the other hand, there was some weird power and cellular meltdown that coïncided with something else, that's a fixable edge case.

The "coinciding problems" should be an assumption, not a edge case we reason away. Because black swan events are always going to have cascading issues - a big earthquake means lights out AND cell towers overloaded or out, not to mention debris in streets, etc. What they need is a "shit is fucked fallback" that cedes control. Maybe there is a special bluetooth command any police or ambulance can send if nearby, like c…

> Or maybe the doors just unlock and any human can physically enter and drive the car up to X distance.

Do the even have physical controls to do that at this point?

I’ve never been in one so I don’t know how different they are from normal cars today.

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#247

Post by MBCook »

scoofy wrote: post #208
MBCook wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simulate them on a test course? There are absolutely places with street lights and everything that you could test something. Hell since they don’t need to work you can just have some put up in a parking lot to test with. Who cares. You don’t need to wait for a city blackout to actually test this kind of scenario. The thing still has cameras. And LIDAR. It should be fully capable of pulling over on its own safely. Why…

> Simulate them on a test course? Yes, what’s the worst that could happen… oh wait… people literally getting killed.

When did a Waymo kill someone on a closed test course?

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#248

Post by MBCook »

scoofy wrote: post #210
MBCook wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet the humans managed. Even at a normal four-way stop with stop signs people sometimes blow through it. The Waymo has to handle it. That’s part of driving. It can creep through at 3 miles an hour if it thinks that’s what’s safe. All it has to do is get out of the intersection.

The outrage people would rightly have at Waymo allowing a number of its vehicles to blow the lights would be huge. People running blacked out lights is unacceptable.

Who said “blow through”?

Waymos know how to handle 4 way stops.

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#249

Post by animal_spirits »

MBCook wrote: post #93

From John Ripley on Mastodon: “Thought of the day, and I wish there were a way to get this to legislators: Come the next Big One earthquake, all of San Francisco’s emergency services will be blocked by Waymos.” I’m AMAZED they’re not designed to handle this better. This does indeed seem like a massive problem. “Oops we give up” right when things get the worst? How is this OK? I’ve been very impressed by Waymo’s more…

During Japan's 2011 earthquake, many roads were gridlocked by human drivers.

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#250

Post by scoofy »

platevoltage wrote: post #7
rwoll wrote: post #3

Prior to reading the article, I assumed Waymos were stuck due to an Internet connectivity issue. However, while the root cause is not explicitly stated, it sounds like the Waymos are “confused” by traffic lights being out.

That sounds plausible. Humans for the most part can usually navigate that situation to a point. It wouldn't surprise me if Waymo cars weren't even trained for this scenario.

I lived in the training zone for both Waymo and Cruise. They were there for literally years before they were offering rides to anyone. The idea that they could train them for emergency scenarios, especially ones that happen so infrequently like a power outage on a route they regularly drive, seems borderline nonsensical, but I honestly don't know if there is a plausible way to do it.
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