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EFF launches Age Verification Hub

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Re: EFF launches Age Verification Hub

#241

Post by Eisenstein »

kcplate wrote: post #214
pksebben wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is porn the biggest problem here? What I've seen points the finger at social media as the worst offender for youth mental health. Also, access to porn isn't new with the internet. When we cleared out my grandpa's house we had to pry open a desk that was chock full of hustlers.

> access to porn isn't new with the internet “Ease of access” and “easy access to the most depraved shit you can think of that’s out there” is what changed. That is what is wrong and why many people feel we need to find some way to control that access. The Internet didn’t come along until I was well into adulthood. Think about what porn access looked like in the late ‘70s and ‘80s. As a teen we were “lucky” if by som…

I doubt that the porn in the 70s was less bad than the porn today. Legal CSAM was being sold openly so what makes you think that it was more tame than modern stuff?

The fact is that as difficult as it was to get, you got a hold of it and watched it. Why would 'ease of access' make any difference if you didn't have easy access and got it anyway?

Re: EFF launches Age Verification Hub

#242

Post by shermanyo »

kahnclusions wrote: post #234
pksebben wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the more I think about it, the more I feel like I need someone with deep knowledge to explain ZKPs to me. So like, we've got this algorithm that gets sent our way and we run it and that provides kind of a cryptographic hash or whatever. But if we're running the algorithm ourselves what's to stop us from lying? Where does the 'proof' come from? What's the check that it's running and why do we inherently trust the sour…

I’m not exactly sure about ZKPs but for age verification the “proof” can come from the government but in such a way that the web service doesn’t know anything more than whether an assertion is true, and the government doesn’t know anything more than you wanted to verify some assertion. This is a simplified method for age verification: I want to buy alcohol from my phone and need to prove I’m over 18. SickBooze.com as…

Excellent, clear example.

Re: EFF launches Age Verification Hub

#243

Post by Nevermark »

Why don't we have zero-knowledge age verification?

One actor verifies ages - and they only need to do so once. Sites give users a key tied to their user account to run by their verifier, who returns another key that attests to their verified age encoded for that specific site, to give back to the site.

The site doesn't know anything about the user, but their user login info. The verifier doesn't know anything about what sites are being visited.

This would seem to address the issues, without creating the pervasive privacy and security problems of every age verifying site creating database of people's government id's, faces, and other personal information.

It also seems like a way out of the legal/legislatorial battle. Which otherwise, is going to be an immortal hydra.

I would trust the EFF to run something like this. Open source. With only one-way encrypted/hashed personal info stored at their end.

(I am not a cryptographic expert. But I believe mechanisms like this are straightforward stuff at this point.)

Re: EFF launches Age Verification Hub

#244

Post by notpushkin »

kahnclusions wrote: post #234
pksebben wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the more I think about it, the more I feel like I need someone with deep knowledge to explain ZKPs to me. So like, we've got this algorithm that gets sent our way and we run it and that provides kind of a cryptographic hash or whatever. But if we're running the algorithm ourselves what's to stop us from lying? Where does the 'proof' come from? What's the check that it's running and why do we inherently trust the sour…

I’m not exactly sure about ZKPs but for age verification the “proof” can come from the government but in such a way that the web service doesn’t know anything more than whether an assertion is true, and the government doesn’t know anything more than you wanted to verify some assertion. This is a simplified method for age verification: I want to buy alcohol from my phone and need to prove I’m over 18. SickBooze.com as…

I would throw in Privacy Pass [1], just in case the government and SickBooze.com can exchange info.

Sadly, it‘s still hard to explain how exactly it works, but conceptually simpler than arbitrary ZKPs.

[1]: https://privacypass.github.io/

Re: EFF launches Age Verification Hub

#245

Post by [deleted] »

pksebben wrote: post #88

This keeps coming up and we keep having the same debates about what Age Verification isn't. For the folks in the back row: Age Verification isn't about Kids or Censorship, It's about Surveillance Age Verification isn't about Kids or Censorship, It's about Surveillance Age Verification isn't about Kids or Censorship, It's about Surveillance Without even reaching for my tinfoil hat, the strategy at work here is clear […

[deleted]

Re: EFF launches Age Verification Hub

#246

Post by kcplate »

Eisenstein wrote: post #241
kcplate wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> access to porn isn't new with the internet “Ease of access” and “easy access to the most depraved shit you can think of that’s out there” is what changed. That is what is wrong and why many people feel we need to find some way to control that access. The Internet didn’t come along until I was well into adulthood. Think about what porn access looked like in the late ‘70s and ‘80s. As a teen we were “lucky” if by som…

I doubt that the porn in the 70s was less bad than the porn today. Legal CSAM was being sold openly so what makes you think that it was more tame than modern stuff? The fact is that as difficult as it was to get, you got a hold of it and watched it. Why would 'ease of access' make any difference if you didn't have easy access and got it anyway?

Are you implying that perhaps 15-25 mins worth of porn video total throughout all of someone’s teenage years due to such rare access of the material would have a similar emotional and mental impact as having the ability to see that much daily for years as is possible now?

There could have been years between the opportunities we had. I don’t think you conceptualize just how infrequent the opportunity would present itself.

Re: EFF launches Age Verification Hub

#247

Post by vbs_redlof »

Nevermark wrote: post #243

Why don't we have zero-knowledge age verification? One actor verifies ages - and they only need to do so once. Sites give users a key tied to their user account to run by their verifier, who returns another key that attests to their verified age encoded for that specific site, to give back to the site. The site doesn't know anything about the user, but their user login info. The verifier doesn't know anything about w…

Because it's not about age verification, it's about setting up infrastructure to enable incremental enchroachment on privacy.

Fun fact: many ZK identity solutions run centralized provers and can be subpoenaed. Need to use something that generates proofs client-side.

Re: EFF launches Age Verification Hub

#248

Post by Eisenstein »

kcplate wrote: post #246
Eisenstein wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt that the porn in the 70s was less bad than the porn today. Legal CSAM was being sold openly so what makes you think that it was more tame than modern stuff? The fact is that as difficult as it was to get, you got a hold of it and watched it. Why would 'ease of access' make any difference if you didn't have easy access and got it anyway?

Are you implying that perhaps 15-25 mins worth of porn video total throughout all of someone’s teenage years due to such rare access of the material would have a similar emotional and mental impact as having the ability to see that much daily for years as is possible now? There could have been years between the opportunities we had. I don’t think you conceptualize just how infrequent the opportunity would present its…

I'm not making any claims about mental or emotional impacts, you are. What are they?

Re: EFF launches Age Verification Hub

#249

Post by anon291 »

pksebben wrote: post #168
topkai22 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Age verification is absolutely about kids. It’s also being used (or hijacked into) a vehicle for people who want increased surveillance. There is a ton of evidence that there are harms to unrestricted online access for kids and teens (the book The Anxious Generation is cultural touchstone for this topic at this point). There is a real, well reasoned, and valid movement to do something about this problem. The solution…

As many others have mentioned in this thread and others, there are ways - effective and straightforward ways - that we could be protecting our kids from the harms that come with the www. The harms are real. The solution is a Surveillance Wolf wearing a dead Save The Kids Sheep(tm). Solutions that might work - RTA headers [0]. More robust parental controls. Not this reimagining of the rules of the internet in service…

Yes all those things are great, but you'll notice that instead of explaining this to the non-technical crowd, technology focused privacy concerned individuals rarely attempt to educate about how these could work. Instead they simply seem to be against any sort of control on what children watch online.

Given that it's also coming from a bunch of tech males, it comes across as extraordinarily creepy. This is not hard to understand.

Re: EFF launches Age Verification Hub

#250

Post by anon291 »

reorder9695 wrote: post #116
thinkingtoilet wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am someone who is very privacy focused. I've literally never had a social media account on any platform and I'm 42. From day one of facebook, I never wanted my information online. Like many here, I'm deeply concerned about privacy and surveillance. In real life, we think age verification is a good thing. Kids shouldn't buy porn. Teenagers shouldn't get into bars. etc... There has to be room somewhere for reasonable…

In real life the situation is different. When I buy alcohol, someone looks at my drivers licence, does not make a copy of it, forgets it quickly, and cannot tie it to other information about me. As soon as it's online and it's copies, I can't tell what happens on anyone else's servers. I don't want any company knowing my actual name and location, then that can be tied to more data, which is what Google etc have been…

So then this is an easy problem. Issue liquor stores a terminal. Liquor guy checks licenses. If you're an adult, the clerk presses a button. A public key is generated and uploaded to a public list. You get a private key that shows you're an adult and is not tied to you. Regular laws that apply to liquor also apply to this private key QR code... You cannot give it to a minor or sell it without a license.

To view adult content, use the code to sign a thing. Content company sees the signed code, verifies against the public list and sends the content.

Privacy preserved, no adult content to kids... Easy.

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