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DeepSeek-v3.2: Pushing the frontier of open large language models [pdf]

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Re: DeepSeek-v3.2: Pushing the frontier of open large language models [pdf]

#241

Post by beowulf0x0 »

tehjoker wrote: post #196
raw_anon_1111 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t think of a single company I’ve worked with as a consultant that I could convince to use DeepSeek because of its ties with China even if I explained that it was hosted on AWS and none of the information would go to China. Even when the technical people understood that, it would be too much of a political quagmire within their company when it became known to the higher ups. It just isn’t worth the political cap…

really a testament to how easily the us govt has spun a china bad narrative even though it is mostly fiction and american exceptionalism

[flagged]

Re: DeepSeek-v3.2: Pushing the frontier of open large language models [pdf]

#242

Post by dworks »

observationist wrote: post #32
jasonsb wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all about the hardware and infrastructure. If you check OpenRouter, no provider offers a SOTA chinese model matching the speed of Claude, GPT or Gemini. The chinese models may benchmark close on paper, but real-world deployment is different. So you either buy your own hardware in order to run a chinese model at 150-200tps or give up an use one of the Big 3. The US labs aren't just selling models, they're selling…

The network effects of using consistently behaving models and maintaining API coverage between updates is valuable, too - presumably the big labs are including their own domains of competence in the training, so Claude is likely to remain being very good at coding, and behave in similar ways, informed and constrained by their prompt frameworks, so that interactions will continue to work in predictable ways even after…

Qwen 3 Coder Plus has been braindead this past weekend, but Codex 5.1 has also been acting up. It told me updating UI styling was too much work and I should do it myself. I also see people complaining about Claude every week. I think this is an unsolved problem, and you also have to separate perception from actual performance, which I think is an impossible task.

Re: DeepSeek-v3.2: Pushing the frontier of open large language models [pdf]

#243

Post by tehjoker »

beowulf0x0 wrote: post #241
tehjoker wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

really a testament to how easily the us govt has spun a china bad narrative even though it is mostly fiction and american exceptionalism

[flagged]

This is how crazy and nationalistic people are getting. I'm an American citizen, though I am critical of the US government, and have no allegiances to China. What do you think America is doing to every country, even allies (which has been highly publicized)? Why would a country being constantly attacked by American intelligence and propaganda not want to counter that?

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us-security-agency-spie...

American intelligence has penetrated most information systems and at least as of 10 years ago, was leading all other nations in the level of sophistication and capability. Read Edward Snowden.

Re: DeepSeek-v3.2: Pushing the frontier of open large language models [pdf]

#245

Post by raw_anon_1111 »

ipaddr wrote: post #235
raw_anon_1111 wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent three years working in consulting mostly in public sector and education and the last two working with startups to mid size commercial interest and a couple of financial institutions. Before that I spent 6 years working between 3 companies in health care in a tech lead role. I’m 100% sure that any of those companies would I have immediately questioned my judgment for suggesting DeepSeek if had been a thing. Ab…

Why would you be presenting what AI tech you are using? You would tell them AI will come from Amazon using a variety of models.

You still choose your model. I’m no more going to say “I’m using Bedrock” without being more specific than I would say “I’m using RDS” without specifying the database.

Re: DeepSeek-v3.2: Pushing the frontier of open large language models [pdf]

#246

Post by reilly3000 »

cubefox wrote: post #133
reilly3000 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of 3rd party and big cloud options to run these models by the hour or token. Big models really only work in that context, and that’s ok. Or you can get yourself an H100 rack and go nuts, but there is little downside to using a cloud provider on a per-token basis.

> There are plenty of 3rd party and big cloud options to run these models by the hour or token. Which ones? I wanted to try a large base model for automated literature (fine-tuned models are a lot worse at it) but I couldn't find a provider which makes this easy.

If you’re already using GCP, Vertex AI is pretty good. You can run lots of models on it:

https://docs.cloud.google.com/vertex-ai/generative-ai/docs/m...

Lambda.ai used to offer per-token pricing but they have moved up market. You can still rent a B200 instance for sub $5/hr which is reasonable for experimenting with models.

https://app.hyperbolic.ai/models Hyperbolic offers both GPU hosting and token pricing for popular OSS models. It’s easy with token based options because usually are a drop-in replacement for OpenAI API endpoints.

You have you rent a GPU instance if you want to run the latest or custom stuff, but if you just want to play around for a few hours it’s not unreasonable.

Re: DeepSeek-v3.2: Pushing the frontier of open large language models [pdf]

#247

Post by BoorishBears »

dworks wrote: post #239
BoorishBears wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say Google still hasn't caught up on the smaller model side at all, but we've all been (rightfully) wowed enough by Pro to ignore that for now. Nano Banano Pro starts at 15 cents per image at Add in the power of fine-tuning on their open weight models and I don't know if China actually needs to catch up. I finetuned Qwen Image on 200 generations from Seedream 4.0 that were cleaned up with Nano Banana Pro, and got…

FWIW, Qwen Z-Image is much better than Seedream and people (redditors) are saying its better than Nano Banana in their first trials. Its also 7B I think, and open.

I've used and finetuned Z-Image Turbo: it's nowhere near Seedream or even Qwen-Image when the latter is finetuned (also doesn't do image editing yet)

It is very good for the size and speed, and I'm excited for the Edit and Base variants... but Reddit has been a bit "over-excited" because it run on their small GPUs and isn't overly resistant to porn.

Re: DeepSeek-v3.2: Pushing the frontier of open large language models [pdf]

#248

Post by verdverm »

reed1234 wrote: post #171
dotancohen wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People and companies trust OpenAI and Anthropic, rightly or wrongly, with hosting the models and keeping their company data secure. Don't underestimate the value of a scapegoat to point a finger at when things go wrong.

But they also trust cloud platforms like GCP to host models and store company data. Why would a company use an expensive proprietary model on Vertex AI, for example, when they could use an open-source one on Vertex AI that is just as reliable for a fraction of the cost? I think you are getting at the idea of branding, but branding is different from security or reliability.

Looking at and evaluating kimi-2/deepseek vs gemini-family (both through vertex ai), it's not clear open sources is always cheaper for the the same quality

and then we have to look at responsiveness, if the two models are qualitatively in the same ballpark, which one runs faster?

Re: DeepSeek-v3.2: Pushing the frontier of open large language models [pdf]

#249

Post by kriops »

saubeidl wrote: post #215
kriops wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

The EU isn’t a state and has no military or police. As such the EU’s existence is an anecdotal answer to your question in itself: Reliance on (in particular maritime) trade. And yes, China also benefits from trade, but as opposed to democracies (in which the general populace to a greater extent are keys to power) the state does not require trade to sustain itself in the same way.

This makes EU countries more reliable partners for cooperation than China. The same goes for the US from an European perspective, and even with everything going on over there it is still not remotely close.

All states are fundamentally adversaries because they have conflicting interests. To your point however, adversaries do indeed cooperate all the time.

Re: DeepSeek-v3.2: Pushing the frontier of open large language models [pdf]

#250

Post by verdverm »

reilly3000 wrote: post #246
cubefox wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are plenty of 3rd party and big cloud options to run these models by the hour or token. Which ones? I wanted to try a large base model for automated literature (fine-tuned models are a lot worse at it) but I couldn't find a provider which makes this easy.

If you’re already using GCP, Vertex AI is pretty good. You can run lots of models on it: https://docs.cloud.google.com/vertex-ai/generative-ai/docs/m... Lambda.ai used to offer per-token pricing but they have moved up market. You can still rent a B200 instance for sub $5/hr which is reasonable for experimenting with models. https://app.hyperbolic.ai/models Hyperbolic offers both GPU hosting and token pricing for popu…

GCloud and Hyperbolic have been my go-to as well
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