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US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

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Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#241

Post by mcphage »

krisoft wrote: post #216
Tiktaalik wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference here is that everyone needs air traffic control and there's zero choices so a market structure doesn't make sense. With bread, maybe I only like certain types of bread. Maybe I don't want bread. It makes sense for there to be a market with diverse offerings. If bread inputs get expensive maybe everyone pivots to eating potatoes. In contrast if you want to fly out of a major city there's one major airpo…

> The difference here is that everyone needs air traffic control This is very much not true. People who don’t own or operate aircraft don’t need air traffic control. > and there's zero choices Probably what you are saying here is that air traffic control is a natural monopoly. You can’t have two (or more) paralel systems issuing clearances at the same time in the same airspace. That would be madness. But what I’m say…

> People who don’t own or operate aircraft don’t need air traffic control.

Also people who ride on airplanes.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#242

Post by mcphage »

techblueberry wrote: post #156
toomuchtodo wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The house is already on fire. The choices are to allow it to burn down and rebuild, taking the arsonists with it, or attempting to slow them down while the fire continues to burn and their supporters cheer them on. American Democracy appears to be the same as second generation wealth: unappreciated until gone. Make Functional Governance Great Again. I wish it were not so.

Hahahahahahahhaa the arsonists aren’t going down with it, the arsonists are on mansions in a private island watching it go down. The idea that the people in power will _lose_ power as a result of widespread unrest is bananas. The only people watching the house burn are those with an insurance policy out on it.

> the arsonists are on mansions in a private island watching it go down. The idea that the people in power will _lose_ power as a result of widespread unrest is bananas.

Islands do make easy targets, though—they’re hard to move and they’re hard to hide.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#243

Post by mrtksn »

rainsford wrote: post #108
andy99 wrote: post #44

I don’t know US specifically but I know a bit about Canadian air traffic controllers. It’s a high stress but very well paying job with good pension etc. But I suspect there’s not a lot of opportunity to change to another job and get the same pay and benefits. So I guess I wonder what the end game is in resigning? Is it just people taking some pre-specified early retirement option, is it early career people that just…

Not really ATC specific, but at some point most people in most jobs can't deal with indefinitely not getting paid and will have to go do something else even if they don't have a good backup plan. Working retail, driving for Uber, etc, all have vastly better ROI at the moment than working ATC getting a $0 paycheck. In theory they'll get backpay and have better future earnings prospects than leaving for an uncertain ca…

If they are allowed at work when they are not being paid, why don’t the airlines create a fund where they just pay them something so they can survive the shut down? IIRC the shutdown isn’t happening that often, they probably can just put money in it and use it when needed

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#244

Post by bsder »

pessimizer wrote: post #128

If the Democrats are smart, they'll keep the shutdown going until Trump folds, keep it going until the midterms if they have to. It's the first thing they're doing that people like, they blame Trump for all the misery. He's jumping in front of the bullet by trying to stop SNAP under a goofy theory that Democrats actually care if people go hungry. Many Republicans have this strange but deeply-held crazy belief that De…

> All rational people agree that Obamacare sucks.

Um, no, we don't.

Remember recission panels? Remember not being able to get insurance if you had sleep apnea (aka pre-existing condition)? I can go on and on about exactly how insurance sucked shit before the ACA.

The ACA could be better, and it was supposed to be adjusted over time. The problem is that we've got an entire party in the US who sole solution to the problems in the ACA is "Destroy it all" without providing a single alternative or improvement.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#245

Post by Tadpole9181 »

Waterluvian wrote: post #178
Tadpole9181 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's quite literally a cult now. It doesn't matter if the house burns down, they'd still rather die in the fire than let woke liberals "win". If the house burns down, we'll be both poor and surrounded (and led) by neo-Nazis.

I get the reasoning and I think it’s colourable. But I can’t help but be irritated having grown up hearing nothing but “Liberty or death” rhetoric of American identity, only to find it was all a pathetic cosplay.

"Liberty or death" never meant the first resort is detonating a proverbial nuke in Manhattan if a bad guy showed up in Time's Square.

But I agree that it's always been a pathetic cosplay. Most "patriots" I've met are by far the least patriotic and actively hate their fellow countrymen.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#246

Post by jaybrendansmith »

rainsford wrote: post #115
e40 wrote: post #3

Remember, the pain this is causing everyone means less to the people in power than does the benefits of this shutdown (to them). We can argue about what those benefits are all day long, but they wouldn't be refusing to have discussions with the Dems if there were not some benefit, be it political power they can wield, or whatever.

The problem is that it's existential for both Democrats and Republicans. Given the current makeup of the federal government, Republicans basically have all the power and have been able to leverage that into spending the last 10 months doing whatever they want. The exception to that power is the Democrats' ability to filibuster in the Senate and shut down the government by not agreeing to whatever the Republicans put…

It's not existential for the Republicans. THEY ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO DO ANYTHING THEY WANT. This setup is essentially anti-democratic, which is why they are able to murder hundreds of thousands of aids patients in Africa and kill 'future you' through their cancelling the bulk of investment in life sciences.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#247

Post by sebastiennight »

HPsquared wrote: post #65
dylan604 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the airlines would surely be glad to pay for the service themselves. No, they would be glad to increase fares so that the flying customers pay for the service themselves. Currently, ATC is subsidized by all tax payers. Your method moves the burden to only those that pay for fares. I'm just pointing it out not saying it is good/bad.

That's probably better anyway. Air fares should cover the costs of flying. It's already a very profitable activity: it's much more efficient than the alternatives, and flying provides much value to passengers. So why can't the industry fund itself?

> It's already a very profitable activity

For whom? Historically, aviation has not been a profitable industry over its lifetime[0]. The companies that still fly are basically just a combination of "survivorship bias" and "newbies still somehow subsidized".

We're looking at today's companies like you'd look at the half-season cast of Squid Game and thinking "this group seems to be thriving, I guess". That only works if you disregard everything that's happened before now and what will likely happen for the rest of the season.

[0]: https://aviationstrategy.aero/newsletter/Jun-2015/1/Airline-...

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#248

Post by baq »

dylan604 wrote: post #34
montroser wrote: post #10

Curbing air traffic at major airports by 10% -- seems like this change alone would cause enough upheaval and disruption to everyday operations that it would offset any incremental relief from slightly lower traffic volume.

I heard a radio report that said something like 25,000-30,000 flights a day, so 10% would still be 2-3 thousand flights per day canceled. They said a majority of these would be the smaller legs from smaller airports to the larger hubs. The flights from hub to larger cities would be less impacted. However it breaks down, 2-3 thousand flights a day is a lot of flight crews not working, and similar cascading effects. So…

Fact: This government has done more to reduce CO2 emissions from aviation than any green protester could have hoped for.

Interpretation: none from me. Don’t shoot the messenger.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#249

Post by Leherenn »

dylan604 wrote: post #164
HPsquared wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok sure the airlines themselves aren't managing to capture the profit from the overall activity (I assume because of intense competition in that part of the value chain) but what about the gains of everyone else involved? For instance the value to passengers is greater than the cost of the airfare, or they wouldn't buy a ticket in the first place. And all the others who make money from it.

There have been plenty of airlines that have gone out of business, so it's not just a money making machine that you seem to think it is.

I think the argument is that if you take the airline industry as whole (so not just airlines, but aircraft manufacturers, travel agencies, airports, all the concessions there, ...) it's still very profitable.

And if you add the value to the customers, then it's through the roof.

Maybe the reverse is more clear: if air travel didn't exist, it would have a huge economic impact; a clear proof of the value creation. Airlines just happen to capture essentially 0% of it.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#250

Post by sebastiennight »

mcphage wrote: post #242
techblueberry wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hahahahahahahhaa the arsonists aren’t going down with it, the arsonists are on mansions in a private island watching it go down. The idea that the people in power will _lose_ power as a result of widespread unrest is bananas. The only people watching the house burn are those with an insurance policy out on it.

> the arsonists are on mansions in a private island watching it go down. The idea that the people in power will _lose_ power as a result of widespread unrest is bananas. Islands do make easy targets, though—they’re hard to move and they’re hard to hide.

Easy targets to whom?

The imaginary people with the power to go take a private island in this fantasy scenario are the same people with the existing power to be on one.

How are you planning to go storm those beaches?

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