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Some people can't see mental images

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Re: Some people can't see mental images

#241

Post by bambax »

andy99 wrote: post #7

I’ve read tons of these and still have no idea if I have aphantasia or not. I can’t understand whether people just have different ways of describing what’s in their minds eye or if there’s really a fundamental difference.

I'm in the exact same boat. I think I have aphantasia, because when I close my eyes all I see is black, and it is easier to conjure up images with eyes open, and I absolutely would never, ever, confuse what I "see" in my mind with reality.

Yet I am very good at recognizing faces, have okay memory of past events (not outstanding, but acceptable) and can describe places and people with reasonable accuracy.

So, I'm not sure.

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#242

Post by sean_pedersen »

Jordan-117 wrote: post #239
andy99 wrote: post #7

I’ve read tons of these and still have no idea if I have aphantasia or not. I can’t understand whether people just have different ways of describing what’s in their minds eye or if there’s really a fundamental difference.

My understanding of it has been that aphantasiacs can only imagine in terms of verbal descriptions, not images. If that's the case, it seems like visual analogy would be a good differentiator. For example: without any internal monologue, think of the Sydney Opera House, and then name some other objects it resembles. Someone with visual imagination should be able to rattle off stuff like sailboats or seashells or fold…

By this reasoning aphantasiacs should be incapable of drawing anything from their mind.

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#243

Post by cperciva »

pfgallagher wrote: post #155
anthk wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of the whole image, you just visualize the main aspects as vectors?

Your metaphor isn't bad, actually. I just don't visualize anything. It's more like a feeling of abstract relationships. It often feels like most of my brain is in RAM; I can usually recall things almost instantly. And if I can’t, I can do the trick where you think of something else and let your mind crunch in the background until it pops up. I should clarify that I can still imagine what a room looks like and what’s…

a feeling of abstract relationships

This. If you ask me to imagine a triangle I'll start thinking about having three sides and three angles and the area is half of the base times the height and it's a rigid body and the angles add up to 180 degrees... but there's no visual aspect to it.

Sometimes I wonder if aphantasia gave me an advantage in mathematics, because I had no trouble whatsoever with the concept of "abstract symbols".

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#244

Post by bena »

fellowniusmonk wrote: post #124
bena wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, the issue is that we cannot know what is actually going on in someone else's mind. All we can do is describe it to the best of our ability. So there is some likelihood that things like inner monologues and aphantasia are simply different ways of describing similar things. However, you present an interesting point of view. As someone who remembers being able to visualize but is no longer able to. And while I f…

This may be a bit nitpicky of me but: I guess I just find qualia skeptism to be generally unhelpful and on a purely personal level I find it annoying and think of it as an almost brain dead take. Uncharitable though that may be, I guess I need an explanation for the behavior because I just don't get it. I distinguish this from being skeptical about specific qualia explanations (the voices in my head are demons talkin…

It's completely ephemeral and ridiculously difficult to prove or demonstrate.

We only really know what goes on inside our own heads. And unlike other things, like long covid, there's no outward expression of not being able to visualize.

And even for those who claim to be able to visualize, they'll admit that they aren't "seeing" the object. But it's difficult to explain what I mean when I say "I can see it in my head". But it's not. So it's hard to say whether what we're doing is the same or not.

Like the old bit about whether or not the blue you see is the blue I see. In the end, it kind of doesn't matter. If something is "blue", we both agree that the thing is blue, it occupies a certain wavelength, etc. So even though we agree that the thing is blue, we cannot know if we actually see it the same. But since the results are the same, the particular qualia doesn't matter.

We can't make that comparison with inner monologue or visualization. Which is why I guess it fascinates people.

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#245

Post by Jordan-117 »

sean_pedersen wrote: post #242
Jordan-117 wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding of it has been that aphantasiacs can only imagine in terms of verbal descriptions, not images. If that's the case, it seems like visual analogy would be a good differentiator. For example: without any internal monologue, think of the Sydney Opera House, and then name some other objects it resembles. Someone with visual imagination should be able to rattle off stuff like sailboats or seashells or fold…

By this reasoning aphantasiacs should be incapable of drawing anything from their mind.

They can, but the representations are much simpler, often lacking visual detail and leaning on written labels:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/12/05/865...

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#246

Post by w_for_wumbo »

Sharlin wrote: post #35
andy99 wrote: post #7

I’ve read tons of these and still have no idea if I have aphantasia or not. I can’t understand whether people just have different ways of describing what’s in their minds eye or if there’s really a fundamental difference.

Yep. Problem is that there's actually a spectrum of vividity of mental imagery, but in popular discussion it's always seen as a binary on/off thing. An old post by Scott Alexander (16+ years, mind blown) discusses this, long before the term "aphantasia" became a thing [1]. There was a debate about what "imagination" actually means already in the late 1800s; some people were absolutely certain that it was just a metap…

"Others were vehement that mental images are just as real as those perceived with our eyes" - This sucks as a child, where you see a gymnasium floor open up beneath you. So you run to safety, just to be punished for what was an appropriate response.

Some children don't see any differentiation between their imagination and reality, so it's a matter of paying attention to how others' behave to know what to do.

Because you can't trust that the reality that you're in is shared by the people around you.

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#247

Post by the_af »

antonvs wrote: post #227
the_af wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I just remember how a candle is shaped its parts and similar characteristics If you do not somehow "see" the shape of the candle, how do you remember its physical characteristics? Is it like a list of physical properties in abstract form? An irregular cylinder of diameter X, longer than it's diameter, etc? I can see, in front of me, a lit candle if I wish it. I cannot claim it's picture-perfect, but I can see it; a…

I remember the shape of a candle perfectly well, I just can't "see" anything. It's not a list of abstract properties, it's an understanding of the shape of a candle. Why would you need to be able to see it to remember its shape?

Because the shape is a physical thing, it's perceived by your senses.

I meant remember, not understand. You can understand something, but I specifically mean remember.

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#248

Post by kraftman »

antonvs wrote: post #225
lm28469 wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people tell me they can see things in their mind I usually ask something like: "imagine a ball, can you see it?" "yes" "ok what color is it? " I never heard anyone say anything other than a variation of "hm I don't know". It's just an anecdote but still

What's funny is, I have complete aphantasia, but I can imagine a ball, I just can't see it. If you ask me what color it is, I would say white, because I imagined a baseball. But I can't see it, I'm just thinking about it.

When you read this do you hear it in your head?

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#249

Post by the_af »

tavavex wrote: post #203
the_af wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I just remember how a candle is shaped its parts and similar characteristics If you do not somehow "see" the shape of the candle, how do you remember its physical characteristics? Is it like a list of physical properties in abstract form? An irregular cylinder of diameter X, longer than it's diameter, etc? I can see, in front of me, a lit candle if I wish it. I cannot claim it's picture-perfect, but I can see it; a…

Can you describe what you mean by "seeing"? To me, imagination isn't like actual sight. The best way I can describe it is that it's a kind of meta-perception, I'm envisioning the thought, the impression of something. I can visualize the exact details and properties of the candle, but it's not like I'm actually seeing it, I'm just thinking of seeing it. The way you describe your imagination is that it's as if the cand…

It's like a photograph is an indirection of the thing that was photographed: not the real thing, but a good visual approximation.

It's like watching a movie; the people are not there, but you still see them.

The cinema is in my mind. People here describe it as "thinking of seeing", but to me that's nonsense. It's definitely a visual thing, I bet it's activating some of the same regions in the brain. Seeing is thinking anyway, in the sense the brain is interpreting signals from the optic nerve.

It's never an hallucination in the sense of being confused about what's real and what's not.

I can also anticipate the taste of something I like, feel it in my mouth, and start salivating. Is it tasting or "thinking of tasting"?

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#250

Post by joquarky »

Lerc wrote: post #147
andy99 wrote: post #7

I’ve read tons of these and still have no idea if I have aphantasia or not. I can’t understand whether people just have different ways of describing what’s in their minds eye or if there’s really a fundamental difference.

I have aphantasia in the sense that I have no sense of there being an image, but several years ago, I posted a comment hypothesising that the interpretation of the experience as an image might be the distinguishing factor. The response to that suggestion was unexpectedly strong, People really didn't like the notion of doubt of their experience. Some said I was accusing them of lying. It was quite odd, I thought it wa…

Many people believe everyone perceives reality the same way.

They don't understand that each of us composes a novel reality from our senses.

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