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The Programmer Identity Crisis

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Re: The Programmer Identity Crisis

#241

Post by tyleo »

jackblemming wrote: post #207
tyleo wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree and I’m surprised more people don’t get this. Bad behaviors aren’t suddenly okay because AI makes them easy. If you are wasting time you may be value negative to a business. If you are value negative over the long run you should be let go. We’re ultimately here to make money, not just pump out characters into text files.

How do you know the net value add isn’t greater with the AI, even if it requires more code review comments (and angrier coworkers)?

Because we know what the value is without AI. I’ve been in the industry for about ten years and others have been in it longer than I have. Folks have enough experience to know what good looks like and to know what bad looks like.

Re: The Programmer Identity Crisis

#242

Post by spicymaki »

I feel that for long time people coming into the industry did not really care about code as a craft, but more of code as easy money.

This was first salient to me when I saw posts about opensource developers who make critical infrastructure living hand to mouth. Then the day in the life of a software engineer working in a coffee shop. Then the bootcamps or just learn to code movement. Then the leetcode grinders. Then developers living in cars in SF due to lack of affordable housing. Now it is about developers vibe coding themselves out of a job.

The issue is and will always be that developers are not true professionals. The standards are loosely enforced and we do a poor job of controlling who comes in and out of the industry. There are no ethics codes, skillsets are arbitrary, and we don't have any representation. Worst yet we bought into this egocentric mindset where abuses to workers and customers are overlooked.

This makes no sense to me. Lawyers have bar associations, doctors have medical associations, coders have existential angst.

Now the bosses are like automate your way out of a job or you will lose your job.

I always ask myself, in what other "profession" would its members be so hostile to their own interests?

Re: The Programmer Identity Crisis

#243

Post by sevenseacat »

MisterTea wrote: post #132
jihadjihad wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> whereas good senior engineers often remove as much code as they add https://www.folklore.org/Negative_2000_Lines_Of_Code.html

"One of my most productive days was throwing away 1000 lines of code." - Ken Thompson

oh yes I've had times like this.

Recently I was looking at building a gnarly form, that had some really complex interactions and data behind it. It just kept being subtly buggy in all different ways. I threw Claude at it, went down so many rabbit holes, it was convinced there were bugs in all the different frameworks and libraries I was using because it couldn't find the issue in the code (that it had written most of).

After a couple of days of tearing my hair out, I eventually dug in and rewrote it from first principles myself. The code afterwards was so much shorter, so much clearer, and worked a hell of a lot better (not going to say perfectly, but, well, haven't had a single issue with it since).

Re: The Programmer Identity Crisis

#244

Post by sevenseacat »

sudahtigabulan wrote: post #185
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should get a clear explanation of the problem and of the team expectations the first time it happens. If it happens a second time? A stern talk from their manager. A third time? PIP or fired. Let your manager be the bad guy. That's part of what they're for. Your manager won't do that? Then your team is broken in a way you can't fix. Appeal to their manager, first, and if that fails put your resume on the street.

> If it happens a second time? A stern talk from their manager. In my experience, the stern talk would probably go to you, for making the problem visible. The manager wouldn't want their manager to hear of any problems in the team. Makes them look bad, and probably lose on bonuses. Happened to me often enough. What you described I would call a lucky exception.

For interrupting the velocity and efficiency of the other dev.

Re: The Programmer Identity Crisis

#245

Post by whynotminot »

balamatom wrote: post #231
whynotminot wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get it, but fundamentally this is a forum discussing technology, and AI is part of that. Especially as it relates to software engineering. I come here to learn, discuss, and frankly, to hang onto a good life as long as I can have it. The collective whinging in every AI topic is both annoying and self-defeating.

>is both annoying and self-defeating No brother. You are the one being annoyed by it, because you are the one doing nothing about it. >What would you like me to do about that? Is me refusing to use the tools going to change that possibility? What I know I refused 'em out of principle, turns out I'm doing fine. I also know for certain that had I not refused them, I would not be doing fine. >to hang onto a good life as…

You still haven’t suggested anything practical to actually do. That’s a lot of words to say basically nothing.

Re: The Programmer Identity Crisis

#246

Post by nuancebydefault »

spicymaki wrote: post #242

I feel that for long time people coming into the industry did not really care about code as a craft, but more of code as easy money. This was first salient to me when I saw posts about opensource developers who make critical infrastructure living hand to mouth. Then the day in the life of a software engineer working in a coffee shop. Then the bootcamps or just learn to code movement. Then the leetcode grinders. Then…

I think the profession of teacher comes close. There are extremely good and extremely bad teachers and everything in between. Knowing the subject you teach very well does not guarantee you can teach it well, often on the contrary.

Maybe coders can see themselves as teachers to the machine. Either they teach character by character, or vibe idea by vibe idea, or anything in between.

Re: The Programmer Identity Crisis

#247

Post by array_key_first »

bloppe wrote: post #163
Macha wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is leadership buy in. The person throwing the LLM slop at github has great metrics when the leadership are looking at cursor usage, lines of code, PR numbers, while the person slowing down to actually read wtf the other people are submitting is now so drowning in slop that they have less time to produce on their own. So the execs look at it as the person complaining "not keeping up with the times".

If leadership is that inept, then this is likely only 1 of many problems they are creating for the organization. I would be looking for alternative employment ASAP.

I think virtually all leadership across corporate America is very metrics-driven. Unfortunately, that means this a lot of the time.

Re: The Programmer Identity Crisis

#248

Post by carlosjobim »

skydhash wrote: post #228
carlosjobim wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even if you're not dogfooding your own software, if you do not take care of it properly, the cost of changes will climb up. How do you mean? If the software works, then it's done. There is no maintenance and it will continue working like that for decades. It doesn't have corrosion and moving parts like a car. Businesses make sure not to touch it or the systems it is depending on.

That would be fine if the dependencies were permanent. Hardware fail and need to be replaced. The OS will be upgraded (macOS is more than happy to make breaking changes). If the software is networked, that’s another transient plane. Libraries will fall out of support range. Then there’s the fact that the user’s needs fluctuate. Imagine having to pay for a whole another software because the current code is spaghetti a…

In my opinion, the OS should not be updated. Not if important software is running on the machine. That's why we see cash registers still using Windows XP.

Sure, if you test it and see that there is no issue with updating, then you can update if you want. But neither the OS or the hardware or anything else should get any priority over the business-crucial software you are running. Even with hardware failures, the better option is to get older hardware for replacement if newer hardware has compatibility issues.

Re: The Programmer Identity Crisis

#249

Post by yuye »

spicymaki wrote: post #242

I feel that for long time people coming into the industry did not really care about code as a craft, but more of code as easy money. This was first salient to me when I saw posts about opensource developers who make critical infrastructure living hand to mouth. Then the day in the life of a software engineer working in a coffee shop. Then the bootcamps or just learn to code movement. Then the leetcode grinders. Then…

Because there's a difference between a "coder" and a software engineer.

Someone who finished a bootcamp might be able to write a simple program in Python, but that doesn't make them a software engineer.

I've said this out loud before and have gotten told I'm an elitist, that my degree doesn't make me better at software than those without one. That majoring in computer science teaches you only esoteric knowledge that can't be applied in a "real job".

On the other hand, the industry being less strict about degrees can be considered a positive. There definitely do exist extremely talented self-taught software engineers that have made a great career for themselves.

But I definitely agree with the need of some sort of standard. I don't care if some bootcamper gets a job at the latest "AI on the blockchain as a service" unicorn startup, good for them. I'd rather have people with formal degrees work on something like a Therac-25, though.

Re: The Programmer Identity Crisis

#250

Post by array_key_first »

mupuff1234 wrote: post #106
codyb wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Configuring editors, dot files, and dev environments consistently adds value by giving you familiarity with your working environment, honing your skills with your tools, and creating a more productive space tailored to your needs. Who else becomes the go to person for modifying build scripts? The amount of people I know who have no idea how to work with Git after decades in the field using it is pretty amazing. It's…

Have you considered that the problem is with Git and not the users?

The issue is with the problem space - version control and reconciliation is hard. The fact we even have software to automate 99% of it is amazing.

Lawyers spend literally hundreds of hours doing just that. Well, their paralegals do.

Git is a legitimately amazing tool, but it can't magically make version control free. You still have to think because ultimately software can't decide which stuff is right and which is wrong.

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