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How America got hooked on ultraprocessed foods

nytimes.com

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Re: How America got hooked on ultraprocessed foods

#241

Post by Atomic_Torrfisk »

hvb2 wrote: post #89
wenc wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Canadian living in the US, I’d say your sentiment depends on where you live and what you’re willing to pay. In the Seattle area there are overpriced grocery stores like PCC and Met Market that sell healthy food at a premium. There is also Whole Foods. Even normal grocery stores like Safeway and Kroger have a ton of healthy foods — you just have to read the label. The one thing you have to know if that American g…

> they carry way more SKUs Not compared to France :) you can buy a dishwasher a tv and stuff for your car all in the same supermarket... Don't ask me why, just stating a fact

The quality of food (and price) of grocery stores in France make grocery stores in Norway feel like a cruel joke. I visited a carrefour(?) in France and I swear the fruit and vegetables were so fresh they looked like wax stage food... honestly it was a highlight of my trip and selection of cheese made me feel a little unkultured.

Re: How America got hooked on ultraprocessed foods

#242

Post by tptacek »

Amezarak wrote: post #237
tptacek wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know that it does, but I do know that carrageenan does, and they're both just seaweed extracts. Later This video is really frustrating. The first half of it is making relatively banal arguments about the importance of food to health. He's setting up an argument that I think basically everybody agrees with (hyperpalatable packaged food are a major driver of illness). But then he gets to UPFs, says the definiti…

I think it’s misleading to suggest a substance is okay because it’s “just” an extract. Normal foods contain lots of substances that when extracted, are obviously bad if concentrated and consumed in larger quantities than would be had during normal consumption of whatever the source is. Additionally, even if that substance is perfectly safe, the extraction process may effectively increase (as a %) the amount of byprod…

At some point with this line of reasoning you fall into the precautionary principle and the naturalist fallacy. I'm fine with people being squicked out by food additives that are products of petroleum chemistry, like benzaldehyde. You can get carrageenan simply by rehydrating and simmering seaweed and then filtering it through cheesecloth.

Whatever else is going on with carrageenan-stabilized yogurt, the carrageenan itself isn't doing anything to drive the health problems this speaker is talking about.

This is actually I think a really good illustration of the problem. There is absolutely a (primarily message-board-driven) literature of concerns about specific variants of carrageenan. But those concerns --- which I don't think are well-founded --- have nothing to do with the wave of concern about "UPFs" generally. The UPF thing isn't about IBD (some think kappa carrageenan exacerbates intestinal inflammation with susceptible people) --- it's about people eating hyperpalatable low-satiety packaged food, which are obesogenic. Getting rid of carrageenan does precisely nothing to address that problem; getting rid of cane sugar, which is not a UPF ingredient, absolutely does.

Re: How America got hooked on ultraprocessed foods

#243

Post by asdff »

Insanity wrote: post #2

As a European who moved to Canada and spends a fair amount of time in the States, one thing that really surprised me is how hard it is to find healthy food options compared to the unhealthy ones. Food was a bit of a concern before moving, but I didn't know just how frustrating it would be. Even something as simple as Yogurt is usually insanely sweet / sugary compared to European variants. Ingredients that are banned…

It isn't hard if you buy the actual raw ingredients and cook for yourself. Produce is fine. Cuts of meat are fine. You can get plain old beans just fine for your vegetarian needs.

It is just people in this country have forgotten how to cook. Grandmother made her own mayonnaise. Mom bought kraft. To you making mayonnaise is a black art since mom never did it, so you also buy kraft. Extend that to most other food products.

Re: How America got hooked on ultraprocessed foods

#244

Post by asdff »

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #41
FirmwareBurner wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you spent time in an actual grocery store, you'd find that your comment isn't true. Also as "an European" whatever that means, I only spent a couple of months in the US as a tourist, and had no issues finding healthy foods from leafy greens, to good meats in places like Wholefoods. If he couldn't find it while actually living there, tells me he's not commenting in good faith.

I mean, Whole Foods targets upper middle class folks, you’re far away from the average American experience

Leafy greens and cuts of meat are not something exclusive to whole foods.

The real issue is people don't cook for themselves and seek out premade shelf stable offerings of what their grandparents were making from scratch decades ago. It is like knowledge has been lost.

Re: How America got hooked on ultraprocessed foods

#245

Post by asdff »

OJFord wrote: post #199
vel0city wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of "basics" did you find missing in actual grocery stores, and what were the actual stores in question?

Not GP, but I can offer: real cheese (not squares of individually wrapped plastic, nor grated and mixed with whatever to prevent caking), Walmart.

Real cheese is not rare. It is a little pricey though. Usually north of $15 a lb.

Re: How America got hooked on ultraprocessed foods

#246

Post by asdff »

Der_Einzige wrote: post #34
SirFatty wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...how hard it is to find healthy food options compared to the unhealthy ones." Sure, if you limit your purchases to Dollar General and Casey's. If you spent time in an actual grocery store, you'd find that your comment isn't true.

To be clear, "actual" grocery store for the purposes of finding reliably fresh and healthy food includes one of the following: 1. Upscale western grocery stores and markets, ideally located within the biggest and most affluent city possible. Pikes place market would be a great example of what I'm talking about for you seattle folks. 2. Asian grocery stores, like "H-mart" 3. Farmers markets, but these are hit and miss…

Trader joes and costco aren't really the same thing as grocery stores. I know this is confusing for foreigners. Kroger/publix/vons/ralphs/albertsons/giant eagle are the real grocery stores. You can get all sorts of good eats there. baguettes and sourdough loafs cooked daily by the in house bakery staff. All sorts of cheese sold by the pound. All sorts of fruits and vegetables although some are seasonal.

Re: How America got hooked on ultraprocessed foods

#247

Post by fcpk »

tptacek wrote: post #93

This all has very big "uncured bacon" energy to me (if you didn't already know: there's no such thing; vendors of uncured bacon performatively drive the same chemical nitrite reaction using vegetable extracts). For example: yogurt becomes a UPF simply by dint of adding carrageenan, which is on the order of calling dashi a UPF because of the kombu. It's not that there isn't a very legitimate issue underneath all this:…

carrageenan has however been shown to induce radical microbiome changes in those consuming it.

Re: How America got hooked on ultraprocessed foods

#248

Post by asdff »

portaouflop wrote: post #106
orochimaaru wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just get plain unsweetened full fat yogurt. Every store has that. Yeah - the sweetened/flavored variety are more but the basic unsweetened is also easily available. Bread is a bit of a shit show. Stick to something like sourdough for 0 adde sugars. Hormones are banned for meat and poultry. I’m not sure how antibiotics are treated. Fwiw - with vegetarian food you also run the risk of pesticide contamination. Either wa…

In my experience the store has 10000 different kinds of sweetened yoghurt and exactly one that is “real” yogurt - often doesn’t have full fat yogurt at all. Completely impossible to get normal bread unless you go to some hipster store that charges an insane amount for it. It’s just really really hard to get decent food in America, which is crazy because the land is so rich in resources and nature.

If you are into yogurt just make your own. I do it with an instapot. Started my batch with a scoop of chobani. I use whole milk and a scoop from the last batch to seed the next batch. Materials cost I'm probably paying maybe $1 for 32oz of yogurt.

Re: How America got hooked on ultraprocessed foods

#249

Post by asdff »

jeffbee wrote: post #18
Insanity wrote: post #2

As a European who moved to Canada and spends a fair amount of time in the States, one thing that really surprised me is how hard it is to find healthy food options compared to the unhealthy ones. Food was a bit of a concern before moving, but I didn't know just how frustrating it would be. Even something as simple as Yogurt is usually insanely sweet / sugary compared to European variants. Ingredients that are banned…

I've lived in various American cities and in all of them there is some place that sells real food, but often it's not the obvious one with the bright sign and the galaxy-scale parking lot.

You don't think a place like Kroger sells real food? Come on. Enough with the tired hyperbole.

Re: How America got hooked on ultraprocessed foods

#250

Post by cma »

Scarblac wrote: post #197
supportengineer wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This begs the question - is it reasonable for the consumer to put in a little work - reading labels and doing research outside of the grocery store? I find that you do the research once, and then you know what to buy next time.

Well, the supermarkets know know what the effect of their product placement is. If they change it, the customer buys different things, on average. So, we can say it's reasonable for people to do some research and pick the yoghurt they consider best, but we know most people don't do that. And that supermarkets prefer to give the best spots to sugary yoghurts. What's wrong with doing the research once for the average p…

It could be the result is people buy more danishes and doughnuts from the bakery section for breakfast instead of now harder to find sweetened yoghurt.
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