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Android's sideloading limits are its most anti-consumer move

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Re: Android's sideloading limits are its most anti-consumer move

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In terms of cameras, my pixel takes way better pictures than any iphone, and people I know with iphones (which is basically everyone) admit it.

Mine was better until Google kept forcing AI sharpening and making things look worse.

Which pixel do you have? I have the 9, and I don't seem to have that problem.

Re: Android's sideloading limits are its most anti-consumer move

#242
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are signed, though. Just not by Google.

“Running binaries signed either by yourself or by whoever wants to spy on you.” That last part there is the problem.

Let's ignore all of the preinstalled programs, which are signed by Google and do a great deal of spying.

Do you think the 100 most popular F-Droid apps do more spying than the 100 most popular Play store apps?

Re: Android's sideloading limits are its most anti-consumer move

#244

Yes, it's a very unfriendly decision by Google. However, I don't think they haven't measured the number of users installing apps outside of the Play store. May be they just don't care about the small % of total users who are a large % here on HN. This is a part of a bigger trend, Cory Doctorow spoke about 13 years ago in his "The coming war on general computing": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUEvRyemKSg And this w…

It's unfriendly to developers and power users, but very friendly to the other 99.999% of users.

I used to work for Google, on Android security, and it's an ongoing philosophical debate: How much risk do you expose typical users to in the name of preserving the rights and capabilities of the tiny base of power users? Both are important but at some point the typical users have to win because there are far, far more of them.

The article implies that this move is security theater. It's not. I wasn't involved in this decision at all, but the security benefit is clear: Rate limiting.

As the article points out, Google already scans all the devices for harmful apps. The problem is knowing what apps to look for. Static analysis can catch them, dynamic analysis with apps running in virtual environments can catch them, researchers can catch them, users can report them... all of these channels are taken advantage of to identify bad apps and Google Play Protect (or whatever it's called these days) can then identify them on user devices and warn the users, but if bad actors can iterate fast enough they can get apps deployed to devices before Google catches on.

So, the intention here is to slow down that iteration. If attackers use the same developer account to produce multiple bad apps, the dev account will get shut down, requiring the attackers to create a new account, registered with a different user identity and confirmed with different government identification documents.

Note that in the short term this will just create an additional arms race. In order to iterate their malware rapidly, attackers will also need to fake government IDs rapidly. This means Google will have to get better at verifying the IDs, including, I expect, getting set up to be able to verify the IDs using government databases. Attackers will probably respond by finding countries where Google can't do that for whatever reason. Google will have to find some mitigation for that, and so on.

So it won't be a perfect solution, but in the real world, especially at Google scale, there are no perfect solutions. It's all about raising the bar, introducing additional barriers to abuse and making the attackers have to work harder and move slower, which will make the existing mechanisms more effective.

Re: Android's sideloading limits are its most anti-consumer move

#245
post #2

Installing any app I want outside the Play Store was the primary reason I decided to go with Android, despite most of the people I know using iPhones. If I can't do this anymore, I may as well switch and be able to use iMessage and FaceTime with them.

Check UbuntuTouch, it's really a nice third option. The OS is refreshing and the dev community active.

We do not have to choose the lesser of two evils this time.

Re: Android's sideloading limits are its most anti-consumer move

#246
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see the link, businesses come and go. Their software dies with them.

Businesses die. Cathedrals don't. IBM is 114 years old. Microsoft is 50. Google is 27. Disney is 101. Nintendo is 136 (they'll outlive Steam and the next nuclear war at this rate). The COBOL running banks is 65 years old. Windows NT architecture is 32. The platforms become infrastructure, too embedded to replace. How many bazaar projects from even 10 years ago are still maintained? Go through GitHub's trending repos…

I we're doing bad analogies my mom's open source duck recipe has been around for hundreds of years.

Re: Android's sideloading limits are its most anti-consumer move

#247
post #2

Installing any app I want outside the Play Store was the primary reason I decided to go with Android, despite most of the people I know using iPhones. If I can't do this anymore, I may as well switch and be able to use iMessage and FaceTime with them.

> Installing any app I want outside the Play Store was the primary reason I decided to go with Android You still can do that with PWAs in Android. Let's see for how long.

Do you have a single friend who isn't a programmer who has installed a PWA in the last two years?

Re: Android's sideloading limits are its most anti-consumer move

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you create and run a service that starts when phone is turned on, with a PWA app? Usecase is a backup daemon.

Does every app need to do this? I make lots of "real" healthcare apps that are PWAs. Much better installation and user experience, no dev cert nonsense, brain dead simple updates, no app store, etc...

Backup, file sync, and chat... very common and important use cases. Not everything can start with a user request.

Re: Android's sideloading limits are its most anti-consumer move

#249
post #186
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> beginning of the end of Android. You underestimate how much money & effort it takes to make an operating system.

Wouldn't people just fork AOSP? Seems like GrapheneOS has a running start?

Forking a project isn't really the same as "ending" it, as much as it is becoming it. Even ignoring that, you can't be a meaningful competitor unless you actually ship on a phone, and support the features that the average consumer is looking for. Amazon even tried and failed spectacularly.

Re: Android's sideloading limits are its most anti-consumer move

#250
post #79
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What part of cheaper, better, and open source is shittier exactly?

> What part of cheaper The iPhone 17 is the same price as the Pixel 10 > better But the iPhone 17 has better hardware features, like UWB, better cameras, and a _far_ faster CPU. > open source Only if you install Graphene, and then never install anything that requires Google Play Services, which is basically every commercial app.

> The iPhone 17 is the same price as the Pixel 10

I mean, flagship vs flagship idk if one has ever been significantly cheaper, but I've never been in the market for those either. It's very easy to get a higher priced, more interesting, highly specced Android phone. Both iPhones and flagship android phones are way too expensive for what they are capable of compared to any of their own prior generations of themselves, if you ignore tech specs and consider the tangible end-user functionality, but even still.

I've always bought the phone that suits me in the moment, have never budgeted higher than $600CAD, and have simply never been interested in iPhones beyond what used to be nice industrial design. For that, last time I got a brand new Pixel 7 on sale, Pixel 4a, Nexus 5 etc.. and they've all done what I needed and usually came close to matching the fancier versions in some ways in the same year's lineup.

Usually though I have breadth of options to pick from across a range of brands that I can choose between based on whatever the hell I prefer. iPhones are just iPhones, bigger or smaller, more expensive or cheaper, big camera plateau or small, and that's all fine too.

The sideloading aspect for me and a better sense of control is absolutely a component in that preference, and I'll have to consider that going forward, but I'd sooner just dial back my dependence on phones in general than switch to an iPhone.

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