Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did • Hacker News Board

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#241

Post by immibis » Sat, Oct 04, 2025, 10:15 AM UTC

sethammons wrote: post #194

justinclift wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You might want to think about why Petersen wants you to think ... What's your take on that?

Not that person but the my take on their take is that Peterson is greasing you up to accept more authoritarian control since he puts you in the in-group of the oppressors to ease the societal drift. I don't necessarily agree. I think he is pointing out that people morally grandstand and the majority will not act out how they say they would.

Note that in the quote, he is, himself, moral grandstanding.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#242

Post by Loughla » Sat, Oct 04, 2025, 10:21 AM UTC

teiferer wrote: post #205

jcz_nz wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the very least, these folks need to have their names permanently attached to this atrocity. These weren’t decisions made by “a corporation” - these people sat across a meeting room table and actually concluded that targeting breast cancer patients was an acceptable means to an end. Lori A. Beer was the CIO at the time. Now at JP Morgan.

"permanently" "ever again" For good reason, modern law systems rarely issue punishments that last a lifetime. People can and do change, and something stupid (and illegal) you did 30 years ago shouldn't be held over your head today. These are rare cases for the absolutely worst crimes. For anything else, you receive a punishment, be it money or months/years in jail, and after that, you deserve a chance to live a life…

That's just false though. For poor people, if you have a conviction, it follows you forever and impacts your life negatively in a multitude of ways.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#243

Post by notthatAIguy » Sat, Oct 04, 2025, 10:22 AM UTC

wow, this was weird

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#244

Post by testing22321 » Sat, Oct 04, 2025, 10:25 AM UTC

Filligree wrote: post #227

testing22321 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be true in the US, but very far from reality in countries that have universal healthcare and a strong social safety net.

That safety net does not extend to paying the interest on your house loan.

When unemployment benefits are a large percentage of your salary and last a year plus it does

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#245

Post by mtlmtlmtlmtl » Sat, Oct 04, 2025, 10:32 AM UTC

comprev wrote: post #226

mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you live with yourself?

How is it any different from working at a gambling company writing addictive software? There will always be someone willing to do the work if the pay is good enough.

The question was how GP felt about their particular unethical act, and it's consequences which likely includes multiple deaths. Since you are not GP, it seems unlikely that you can answer this question.

I fail to see the relevance of bringing up a different, and also unethical example, but I'll answer anyway. If GP said that they used to spend their time optimising software to be as addictive as possible in order to drive people into gambling addiction, destroying their lives and taking all their money while doing it, I would ask the same question.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#246

Post by mtlmtlmtlmtl » Sat, Oct 04, 2025, 10:40 AM UTC

immibis wrote: post #234

gregoryl wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really seems like you have effectively caused the deaths of many people through your actions. Does that have a lingering impact on you?

I think it's still controversial whether manufacturers of substances are morally culpable for the result of people wrongly using them. And while you could hold the marketing or executive team accountable for trying to get people addicted to heroin, I'm not sure the same applies to programmers of an inventory tracking system?

Controversial in general, maybe. In the case of opioids and the pharm industry, absolutely not. It's been well documented at this point that pharm companies were well aware of the abuse, and not only did nothing to stop it, but went out of their way to encourage it because sales were going through the roof.

In the case of Purdue and oxycontin, the culpability has in fact been established in court as well.

As for the coders, I find it hard to believe that they were so ignorant, naïve, or unintelligent that they had absolutely no idea what was going on. I just don't buy it.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#247

Post by bestouff » Sat, Oct 04, 2025, 10:41 AM UTC

kstenerud wrote: post #185

ghssds wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's counter-productive to punish someone for something out of their control. One should not be punished for his parents', siblings' or childs' actions.

Yep. We have laws against that sort of thing precisely because it's such a common human reaction to an injustice. You can even see the evidence in many of the sister comments here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment

Of course, but having their families profit from the money earnt via these evil actions doesn't seem fair either.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#248

Post by 1718627440 » Sat, Oct 04, 2025, 10:46 AM UTC

teiferer wrote: post #205

jcz_nz wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the very least, these folks need to have their names permanently attached to this atrocity. These weren’t decisions made by “a corporation” - these people sat across a meeting room table and actually concluded that targeting breast cancer patients was an acceptable means to an end. Lori A. Beer was the CIO at the time. Now at JP Morgan.

"permanently" "ever again" For good reason, modern law systems rarely issue punishments that last a lifetime. People can and do change, and something stupid (and illegal) you did 30 years ago shouldn't be held over your head today. These are rare cases for the absolutely worst crimes. For anything else, you receive a punishment, be it money or months/years in jail, and after that, you deserve a chance to live a life…

That's true. We judge people to be guilty and then they get a punishment. But after the punishment they have payed back their guilt and are now not guilty anymore, that's kind of the deal.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#249

Post by 1718627440 » Sat, Oct 04, 2025, 10:48 AM UTC

tpoacher wrote: post #51

philipallstar wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When your access to food, housing, heating and healthcare for your family are dependent on your income, you may find yourself facing very difficult decisions This is the time when your ethics are tested. Anyone can do the right thing when they're getting paid for it.

There's a nice Jordan Peterson quote: > There was a lesson to learn from the holocaust. We're always reminded that: "Never forget, we've learned our lesson." "What was the lesson?" That's the question. The lesson is, "You're the Nazi". No-one wants to learn that; If you were there, that would have been you. You might think "Well, I'd be Oskar Schindler and I'd be rescuing the Jews." It's like, no, afraid not. You'd a…

I thought the lesson was to not base your morality and what you are willing to do on the laws, because they can change at a whim. And for the democratic politicians, don't play with fire and take problems seriously.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#250

Post by walleeee » Sat, Oct 04, 2025, 10:53 AM UTC

immibis wrote: post #234

gregoryl wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really seems like you have effectively caused the deaths of many people through your actions. Does that have a lingering impact on you?

I think it's still controversial whether manufacturers of substances are morally culpable for the result of people wrongly using them. And while you could hold the marketing or executive team accountable for trying to get people addicted to heroin, I'm not sure the same applies to programmers of an inventory tracking system?

Regardless whether the rest of society finds the programmers responsible, the integrity of that society depends upon programmers in such situations holding themselves accountable. Apparatchik or moral agent? That choice remains ours.