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ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

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Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#241

Post by Xelbair »

nikkwong wrote: post #184
Xelbair wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this also assumes that criminals or terrorists will just follow the law. you can always establish encrypted channel via DH over stenography in plaintext messaging, and just use any encrypted protocol. if hardware is compromised a black market for such devices will surface. Worst case scenario you create gigantic one time pads and just use them. the whole idea is flawed as you get neither security nor privacy. in fact…

> a black market for such devices will surface Probably, but I think you are giving most bad actors too much credence. Tyler Robinson took several precautions to cover his trail in his assassination of Charlie Kirk—but he also told many individuals about his plan on discord, as well as other non-encrypted channels, etc. Not all bad actors are sophisticated in the same way. I wouldn't trust the government with the pow…

>Probably, but I think you are giving most bad actors too much credence. Tyler Robinson took several precautions to cover his trail in his assassination of Charlie Kirk—but he also told many individuals about his plan on discord, as well as other non-encrypted channels, etc. Not all bad actors are sophisticated in the same way.

you're comparing organized crime, which this is supposed to combat - with a lone gunman. Stupid criminals will always exist.

>Still, again, if the threat is big enough, I am curious to ponder what role individuals would want government to take in using surveillance to reduce actual human deaths in terror attacks (or any type of attack, for that matter).

the purpose of this isn't to stop deaths. It is to entrench state power, increase agencies budget... and as they have to demonstrate that they are useful it will turn either into totalitarian hellhole with plenty 'making example of' public cases... or some attacks will go through on purpose to justify their budget after cuts...

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#242

Post by 1718627440 »

WinstonSmith84 wrote: post #163
nikkwong wrote: post #151

Imagine a future where it becomes easier to commit terrorism because of some technological advancements—like smaller, less traceable bombs, or chemical weapons that are easily accessible and lead to higher casualties—like in the 1,000s or more. Imagine in that scenario, that the likelihood of you or someone you know becoming the victim of a terrorist attack is now non-trivial in your society. In a future where this b…

did you write this message with ChatGPT? > .. like smaller, less traceable bombs, or chemical weapons that are easily accessible and lead to higher casualties .. it's very easy to build a bomb, you just need to "google" and make your shopping... Killing random people in the street is easy too, you have, among others, knifes - very easy to buy and commit a crime in side streets, etc.

Actually you can kill people just fine with only your hands. You just need to open a medicine book, there are a few spots, where a light hit achieves the intended effect.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#243

Post by jimbo808 »

like_any_other wrote: post #230
thfuran wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The authorities really think every predator will just give up and stop abusing just because of that? What a joke. Yes, the framing is disingenuous, but so is yours. You're seriously suggesting that any policy that doesn't 100% eliminate a problem is a joke?

Well, what is "the problem"? Is it children being abused, or is it the distribution of CSAM? And if you say both - how would you rate the relative severity of the two problems? Specifically, if you had to pick between preventing the rape of a child, and preventing N acts of CSAM distribution, how big would N have to be to make it worth choosing the latter?

I don't think they care what N is, they are just scapegoating a vile group they know will have no defenders, and they can use it to silence the critics by associating them with that group.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#244

Post by EGreg »

lukan wrote: post #233
xp84 wrote: post #179

From the article, the current flavor of "threat" this is being positioned to fight is CSAM. Does anyone believe that predators commit those heinous offenses because of the availability of encrypted channels to distribute those products of their crimes? I sure don't. The materials exist because of predators' access to children, which these surveillance measures won't solve. Best case scenario (and this is wildly optim…

Best case scenario would be, lots of children will be saved from abuse because the magic software somehow discovers that. I kind of doubt it though.

No, you don’t get it. Hosting or possessing CSAM has criminal penalties even if no children were involved. For example AI generated imagery.

In fact, even if zero children are ever trafficked or abused going forward, and pedophiles only use old photos of children from 30 years ago, merely having these images is still an issue.

Conversely, the vast majority of sexual abuse of minors doesn’t involve images and goes unreported. "Considerable evidence exists to show that at least 20% of American women and 5% to 10% of American men experienced some form of sexual abuse as children" (Finkelhor, 1994). "Most sexual abuse is committed by men (90%) and by persons known to the child (70% to 90%), with family members constituting one-third to one-half of the perpetrators against girls and 10% to 20% of the perpetrators against boys" (Finkelhor, 1994).

In short - if they wanted to reduce child abuse, scanning everyone’s communications for CSAM would not be the most straightforward way to go about it.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#245

Post by palata »

xp84 wrote: post #179

From the article, the current flavor of "threat" this is being positioned to fight is CSAM. Does anyone believe that predators commit those heinous offenses because of the availability of encrypted channels to distribute those products of their crimes? I sure don't. The materials exist because of predators' access to children, which these surveillance measures won't solve. Best case scenario (and this is wildly optim…

Disclaimer: I am against ChatControl.

> Does anyone believe that predators commit those heinous offenses because of the availability of encrypted channels to distribute those products of their crimes?

Who says that? I don't think they say that.

> The authorities really think every predator will just give up and stop abusing just because of that?

Nope, they think they will be able to arrest more predators.

> More likely of course, those criminals will just use [...]

You'd be surprised how many criminals are technically illiterate and just use whatever is the default.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#246

Post by sjsdaiuasgdia »

1718627440 wrote: post #215
sjsdaiuasgdia wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, get a 2/3 majority of the House and Senate to approve a proposed edit removing those commas, and then get 3/4 of the state legislatures to approve it. Until then, the commas are officially part of the text.

Comma rules change over time.

But the text of the Constitution only changes through amendments.

That said, the effective meaning of the Constitution is "whatever a majority of the Supreme Court agrees it is."

And to a degree, given the power to impeach Supreme Court justices, "whatever a majority of the Supreme Court agrees it is, and with Congress sufficiently on board to not impeach sufficient justices to force a shift in the balance of the Court."

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#247

Post by 1718627440 »

Bender wrote: post #118
palata wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slack is not end-to-end encrypted and belongs to a US company. So there is no need for ChatControl there: the US government already has access to everything that is written on Slack.

I believe they are referring to using GPG to encrypt data before putting it into Slack, much like using the out of band OTR. In that case all the data shared between those using GPG or OTR would only be accessible to those with the right out of band keys. There are probably not a lot of people doing this, or not enough for governments to care. I do this in IRC using irssi-otr [1]. If that ever became illegal because…

I fear when its become illegal to not have a remote scanner on my computer broadcasting file contents, invoking GPG will be of much less use.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#248

Post by palata »

blindriver wrote: post #217
xp84 wrote: post #179

From the article, the current flavor of "threat" this is being positioned to fight is CSAM. Does anyone believe that predators commit those heinous offenses because of the availability of encrypted channels to distribute those products of their crimes? I sure don't. The materials exist because of predators' access to children, which these surveillance measures won't solve. Best case scenario (and this is wildly optim…

This has nothing to do with csam and arguing that point is on purpose, to distract people and the politicians can say “xp84 supports child pornography!” It has everything to do with censorship and complete control over people’s ability to communicate. Politicians hate free speech and they want to control their citizens completely including their thoughts. This is true evil.

[flagged]

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#249

Post by delis-thumbs-7e »

nikkwong wrote: post #213
gjsman-1000 wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Best case scenario (and this is wildly optimistic) the offenders won't be able to find any 'safe' channels to distribute their materials to each other. The theory is based on the documented fact that most crime is poorly thought through with terrible operational security. 41% is straight up opportunistic, spur of the moment, zero planning. It won't stop technologically savvy predators who plan things carefully ; bu…

Exactly. Econ 101: why do consumption taxes work at all? By increasing the amount of pain associated with purchasing a particular indulgent product, you decrease the consumption of that product on the margin . When you increase the price of cigarettes by 20%, cigarette smoking in a society decreases. But for the most addicted, no consumption tax will probably act as a deterrent. Some individuals will find a way to di…

Wait. Are you calling child pornography an ”indulgent product?”

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#250

Post by 1718627440 »

randomNumber7 wrote: post #140
thewebguyd wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They'll push the scanning to the OS level, mandate that the OS does it. Hence the seemingly coordinated effort with Google on the sideloading changes, and enforcing play protect, etc. Like the TPM & Microsoft scare when TPM first started arriving in hardware, and we all thought it would be used to lock out other OSes. Only it's for real this time.

> They'll push the scanning to the OS level I don't know if this is possible so easily. Does the OS scan the memory of all applications? How does it know what is text and image data? What if it is encryped or even just obfuscated? Does the OS then track all changes of memory etc? Or you think it'll just have a rolling keylogger so you can't type in s.th. malicious?

Everything a process does beyond touching memory is going through a syscall. The OS serves every key press to such a program.
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