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John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

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Re: John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

#241

Post by alanbernstein »

firesteelrain wrote: post #188
aprilthird2021 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But... That's not an HR violation. If something a team is working on is a waste of resources, it's a waste. You can either realize that and pivot to something more useful (like an effort to take the improvements of the current OS project and apply them to existing OSes), or stubbornly insist on your value. Why is complaining to HR even an option on the table?

One could argue that if it’s not in your swim lane, you just let it fail. And if you aren’t that person’s manager, you tell them the code or design that you are reviewing and thus the gatekeeper is not adequate. Politely. You said your part and no need to get yourself in trouble. Document and move on. If the company won’t listen then you move on. No need to turn it into a HR issue.

Carmack's swim lane was exceptionally wide. My understanding was that this sort of criticism was actually his main job duty.

Re: John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

#242

Post by yard2010 »

dmazzoni wrote: post #236

I was at Google when the Flutter team started building Fuchsia. They had amazing talent. Seriously, some of the most brilliant engineers I've worked with. They had a huge team. Hundreds of people. It was so ambitious. But it seemed like such a terrible idea from the start. Nobody was ever able to articulate who would ever use it. Technically, it was brilliant. But there was no business plan. If they wanted to build a…

I guess it's just a political shit show at this point. Ideas go hard if the people behind them aren't playing the game well enough, no matter their value.

Re: John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

#243

Post by byryan »

thepryz wrote: post #174
howdyhowdy123 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hehehe. I have talked to John Carmack a few times. He's super harsh and has zero filter or social niceties (Azperger's level, not that he is, but just sayin'). If you are not used to it or understand where it's coming from, it can be quite a shock. Or at least he was, many years ago. Maybe he's changed.

I can see that. Sadly, there are a lot of people in the world who simply don't know how to deal with people who can be direct, if not somewhat abrasive, in their communication style. Their intent can be noble, well-intentioned, and not meant to offend. They simply don't beat around the bush or worry about whether your fragile ego will be bruised when they make an observation. I've had to coach people and help them un…

> Their intent can be noble, well-intentioned, and not meant to offend. They simply don't beat around the bush or worry about whether your fragile ego will be bruised when they make an observation.

I mean maybe, but maybe Carmac is just an ass hole... He can be a "legend" in the software development world and also just not be a super great person socially. The two things aren't mutually exclusive.

I don't disagree with you entirely, but being "direct" isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card for poor interpersonal skills. It's not always about "fragile egos" or "entitlement", it's about basic professionalism and communication.

Re: John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

#244

Post by leoc »

markus_zhang wrote: post #161
Aurornis wrote: post #133

> They also got me reported to HR by the manager of the XROS effort for supposedly making his team members feel bad I've only seen John Carmack's public interactions, but they've all been professional and kind. It's depressing to imagine HR getting involved because someone's feelings had been hurt by an objective discussion from a person like John Carmack. I'm having flashbacks to the times in my career when coworker…

I have mixed feelings about this. In one part, JC is someone I look up to, at least from the perspective of engineering. On the other hand, putting myself in the shoes in someone who got the once in life chance to build a new OS with corp support for a new shiny device…I for hell would want to do this.

Look at the outcome of Meta's performance in AR/VR over the past few years: a fortune has been spent; relatively little has been achieved; the whole thing is likely about to be slashed back; VR, something Carmack believes in, remains a bit commercially marginal and easily dismissed; and Carmack's own reputation has taken a hit from association with it all. You can understand perfectly well why he doesn't feel that it would have been harmless to just let other people have whatever fun they wanted with the AR/VR Zuckbucks.

(Mind you, Carmack himself was responsible for Oculus' Scheme-based VRScript exploratory-programming environment, another Meta-funded passion project that didn't end up going far. It surely didn't cost remotely as much as XROS though.)

Re: John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

#246

Post by treyd »

howdyhowdy123 wrote: post #142
betaby wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because of state backing and state objectives MS is a state backed company. Very natural that China went the same path.

No it isn't

MS has deep ties into the state department and intelligence apparatus that few other companies do. Just as deep as the defense contractors who have a near monopoly-monopsony relationship with the federal government. You can argue about how exclusive they are in particular qualities but the scale and depth they operate at makes their relationship approximate the relationship Huawei does with the Chinese government. They're just what state-backed enterprises look like under liberal-ish capitalism.

Re: John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

#247

Post by nrp »

theshackleford wrote: post #170
Aurornis wrote: post #133

> They also got me reported to HR by the manager of the XROS effort for supposedly making his team members feel bad I've only seen John Carmack's public interactions, but they've all been professional and kind. It's depressing to imagine HR getting involved because someone's feelings had been hurt by an objective discussion from a person like John Carmack. I'm having flashbacks to the times in my career when coworker…

> I've only seen John Carmack's public interactions, but they've all been professional and kind. You don't know someone or how they really behave because they are a public figure.

I’ve been on both the same side and the opposing side of debates with him, both in person and over internal discussion threads. His public persona and private behavior match. I viewed it positively, though per the topic of the thread, not everyone did.

Re: John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

#248

Post by aprilthird2021 »

dmazzoni wrote: post #236

I was at Google when the Flutter team started building Fuchsia. They had amazing talent. Seriously, some of the most brilliant engineers I've worked with. They had a huge team. Hundreds of people. It was so ambitious. But it seemed like such a terrible idea from the start. Nobody was ever able to articulate who would ever use it. Technically, it was brilliant. But there was no business plan. If they wanted to build a…

And the crazy thing is there is arguably a lot more of a reason for Meta / Oculus to have had its own operating system because it is meant for a specific configuration of hardware and to utilize those hardware resources to a quite different goal than most other OSes out there. Even in that environment it was still a waste

Re: John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

#249

Post by treyd »

CodeArtisan wrote: post #110
saulpw wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the Linux kernel has ~12m lines of code. <1m are the core, the rest are drivers.

29 Millions according to https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-6.16-AMDGPU-Driver-Size 5 Millions alone for the AMD graphic driver.

Much of that 5M are hardware register definitions expanded into C headers. I am not sure how you'd consolidate that but it's not like that's all bespoke C code.

Re: John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

#250

Post by this_user »

randall wrote: post #135
Aurornis wrote: post #133

> They also got me reported to HR by the manager of the XROS effort for supposedly making his team members feel bad I've only seen John Carmack's public interactions, but they've all been professional and kind. It's depressing to imagine HR getting involved because someone's feelings had been hurt by an objective discussion from a person like John Carmack. I'm having flashbacks to the times in my career when coworker…

meta was a weird place for a while. because of psc (the performance rating stuff) being so important… a public post could totally demoralize a team because if a legend like carmack thinks that your project is a waste of resources, how is that going to look on your performance review? impact is facebook for “how useful is this to the company” and its an explicit axis of judgement.

How large is their headcount these days? And how many actually useful products have they launched in the last decade? You could probably go full Twitter and fire 90% of the people, and it would make no difference from a user perspective.
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