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We put a coding agent in a while loop

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Re: We put a coding agent in a while loop

#241
post #227

I'm retired from the industry, and posts like these take me back to the early days of cybersecurity (where people memorized scripts). Talking with my nephews and nieces, I can already tell that many new grads struggle with fundamentals—things like choosing the right data types and containers for short-lived strings, understanding how memory allocation works, or even marginally improving a basic hashing function. I wo…

As the "ceiling" grows, the "floor" of what's considered "fundamentals" moves in the same direction.

Re: We put a coding agent in a while loop

#242

There will be a a new kind of job for software engineers, sort of like a cross between working with legacy code and toxic site cleanup. Like back in the day being brought in to “just fix” a amalgam of FoxPro-, Excel-, and Access-based ERP that “mostly works” and only “occasionally corrupts all our data” that ambitious sales people put together over last 5 years. But worse - because “ambitious sales people” will no lo…

Does anyone remember the websites that front page and dreamweaver used to generate from its wysiwyg editor? It was a nightmare to modify manually and convinced me to never rely on generated code.

Re: We put a coding agent in a while loop

#243

There are always two major results from any software development process: a change in the code and a change in cognition for the people who wrote the code (whether they did so directly or with an LLM). Python and Typescript are elaborate formal languages that emerged from a lengthy process of development involving thousands of people around the world over many years. They are non-trivially different, and it's neat th…

I wonder though. One of the superpowers of LLMs is code reading. I say the tools are better and reading than writing. It is very easy to get comprehensive documentation for any code base and get understanding by asking questions. At that point does it matter that there is a living developer who understands the code? If an arbitrary person with knowledge of the technology stack can get up to speed quickly is it import…

> I say the tools are better and reading than writing.

No way, models are much, much better at writing code than giving you true and correct information. The failure modes are also a lot easier to spot when writing code: it doesn't compile, tests got skipped, it doesn't run right, etc. If Claude Code gave you incorrect information about a system, the only way to verify is to build a pretty good understanding of that system yourself. And because you've incurred a huge debt here, whoever's building that understanding is going to take much more time to do it.

Until LLMs get way closer (not entirely) to 100%, there's always gonna have to be a human in the loop who understands the code. So, in addition to the above issue you've now got a tradeoff: do you want that human to be able to manage multiple code bases but have to come up to speed on a specific one whenever intervention is necessary, or do you want them to be able to quickly intervene but only in 1 code base?

More broadly, you've also now got a human resource problem. Software engineering is pretty different than monitoring LLMs: most people get into into it because they like writing code. You need software experts in the loop, but when the LLMs take the "fun" part for themselves, most SWEs are no longer interested. Thus, you're left with a small subset of an already pretty small group.

Apologists will point out that LLMs are a lot better in strongly typed languages, in code bases with lots of tests, and using language servers, MCP, etc, for their actions. You can imagine more investments and tech here. The downside is models have to work much, much harder in this environment, and you still need a software expert because the failure modes are far more obscure now that your process has obviated the simple stuff. You've solved the "slop" problem, but now you've got a "we have to spend a lot more money on LLMs and a lot more money on a rare type of expert to monitor them" problem.

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I think what's gonna happen is a division of workflows. The LLM workflows will be cheap and shabby: they'll be black boxes, you'll have to pull the lever over and over again until it does what you want, you'll build no personal skills (because lever pulling isn't a skill), practically all of your revenue--and your most profitable ideas--will go to your rapacious underlying service providers, and you'll have no recourse when anything bad happens.

The good workflows will be bespoke and way more expensive. They'll almost always work, there will be SLAs for when they don't, you'll have (at least some) rights when you use them, they'll empower and enrich you, and you'll have a human to talk to about any of it at reasonable times.

I think jury's out on whether or not this is bad. I'm sympathetic to the "an LLM brain may be better than no brain", but that's hugely contingent on how expensive LLMs actually end up being and any deleterious effects of outsourcing core human cognition to LLMs.

Re: We put a coding agent in a while loop

#244
post #120
post #9

I’ve done a few ports like this with Claude Code (but not with a while loop) and it did work amazingly well. The original codebase had a good test suite, so I had it port the test suite first, and gave it some code style guidance up front. Then the agent did remarkably well at doing a straight port from one imperative language to another. Then there’s some purely human work to get it really done — 80-90% done sounds…

What was your method of invoking Claude, out of curiosity?

Claude Code in a terminal. I may have done some touchups in Cursor.

Re: We put a coding agent in a while loop

#245
post #22

I am honestly surprised how we went from almost OCD TDD and type purism, to a "it kinda works" attitude to software.

Literally just read a blogpost[1] about this. Gist: The two ebb and flow in waves. "It kinda works" produces innovation, OCD hones the artifacts until it runs out of material and the cycle continues.

[1]https://worksonmymachine.ai/p/safe-is-what-we-call-things-la...

Re: We put a coding agent in a while loop

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's grifting, plain and simple. And that blog is atrocious, high noise-to-signal and repulsive, AI-generated everything.

And yet, the original post, which has been on the front page of Hacker News for 18 hours, is based on techniques from my blog that you're degrading.

Front-paging Hacker News is no longer something bragworthy, sadly.

Re: We put a coding agent in a while loop

#247
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try actually doing it, realise how very far the outcome is from what the blog posts describe the vast majority of the time, and get dread from the state of (social) media instead.

Yes, but the cooked thing is you just run more loops with the right prompts and you can resolve defective outcomes. It's terrifying

No, it still doesn't work. But the only way to realise it is to actually really try using it.

Re: We put a coding agent in a while loop

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software takes longer to develop than other parts of the org want to wait. AI is emerging as a possible solution to this decades old problem.

Everything takes longer than ppl want to wait. But when building a house, ppl are more patient and tolerant about the time taken, because they can physically see the progress, the effort, the sweat. Software is intangible and invisible except maybe for beta-testers and developer liaisons. And the visual parts, like the nonfunctional GUI or web UI, are often taken as "most of the work is done", because that is what pe…

It's product management's job to bridge that gap. Break down and prioritize complex projects into smaller deliverables that keep the business folks happy.

It's better than houses, IMO - no one moves into the bedroom once it's finished while waiting for the kitchen.

Re: We put a coding agent in a while loop

#249
post #70

There are always two major results from any software development process: a change in the code and a change in cognition for the people who wrote the code (whether they did so directly or with an LLM). Python and Typescript are elaborate formal languages that emerged from a lengthy process of development involving thousands of people around the world over many years. They are non-trivially different, and it's neat th…

There's a classic Peter Naur paper about this from 1985: "Programming as Theory Building" https://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~remzi/Naur.pdf

found a copy that isn't a scanned paper:

https://gist.github.com/dpritchett/fd7115b6f556e40103ef

Re: We put a coding agent in a while loop

#250
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watching was supposed to be a prototype become the production code is one of the most constant themes of my 20 year career

Software takes longer to develop than other parts of the org want to wait. AI is emerging as a possible solution to this decades old problem.

I don’t really see this as universal truth with corporate customers stalling process for up to 2 years or end users being reluctant to change.

We were deploying new changes every 2 weeks and it was too fast. End users need training and communication, pushback was quite a thing.

We also just pushed back aggressive timeline we had for migration to new tech. Much faster interface with shorter paths - but users went all pitchforks and torches just because it was new.

But with AI fortunately we will get rid of those pesky users right?

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