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The Folk Economics of Housing

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Re: The Folk Economics of Housing

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The consequences of your policy are that people without a million dollars are sleeping in tents.

...How do you figure that? No one's trying that policy. It's certainly not what's led us to this point. Building is nowhere near fast enough to keep up with demand, especially in the areas with lots of homeless people, and especially in the affordable price ranges. Seems to me the policy that has the consequences you describe is, in fact, the policy you described in the GP. Reminds me of all the posts I've seen with…

Just think through the consequences of your policy proposal. What you are saying is you will outlaw investment in a second house for rent. The result will be that only the people who can afford to buy a house can live in one. Everyone else, which is half of American households, has to live somewhere else. You haven't specified where that other place is, but I guess it would have to be larger apartment buildings, built and operated by larger organizations (corporations, or at best cooperatives).

I rent my house from the woman who lives next door. I could not afford to buy this house. I have a nice garden and my kids go to great schools. Your policy means that this arrangement is forbidden. My family is not allowed to access this life because I am not rich enough. That is a bad policy.

Re: The Folk Economics of Housing

#242

Wow, I'm totally owned. A few weeks ago here I argued that no one blames landlords and developers for this. I was specifically arguing that "the left" doesn't, but I'm actually really surprised to see anyone does.

A huge amount of people on the left blame "greedy developers" for making housing too expensive.

Re: The Folk Economics of Housing

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The entire question can be contained by the assumption that "there is someone new coming to Seattle" and whether it would be better to have a new condo unit to sell to them or have them compete for existing fixed stock. The whole bit about the Chicago housing market is a distractor, because it stays the same under either policy. Are you denying that induced demand is a thing for housing? That everyone who wants to…

I've never understood the induced demand argument. Yes, when goods get cheaper demand increases. Or, to put it another way, when we make our cities more affordable more people want to live there. What's the problem? Sure, induced demand means that the marginal increase of affordability is less than it may have been if demand remained constant, but a. affordability still increases, and b. the solution is just to keep…

Induced demand is a very popular fake idea and conversation ender. Giving people more of what they want is a good thing.

Re: The Folk Economics of Housing

#244
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would he leave it vacant?

Because the value always goes up and managing renters and repairs is a PITA.

If you don't include rent, real estate has significantly underperformed equities as an investment:

https://www.frbsf.org/wp-content/uploads/wp2017-25.pdf

Re: The Folk Economics of Housing

#245
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this housing that they are purchasing just being sat on? I would think that these are being purchased to be rented out (thereby still increasing housing supply), not just held. Homes are depreciating assets.

In the sunbelt, they buy it, jack up rents, evict tenants, and basically turbocharge being a slumlord until they find new buyers for more than what they paid. Due to supply constraints, they often succeed in this process (which repeats under new landlords) multiple times before the market becomes too pricey and further increases aren’t tolerated (which is why organization is on the rise - the rent is too damn high fo…

Buildings depreciate, but land does not.

Re: The Folk Economics of Housing

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I build 4 houses, and someone speculatively buys 1 house, I've still added 3 to the housing supply. As a solution to the housing shortage, building new is 25% inefficient? Great, it's 75% efficient. That's not bad for a solution. So let's do it, in volume, and actually make a dent in the problem. And for the builders, they don't care. A speculator bought that house? It payed me just the same. But even better, the…

Again, ON PAPER your math works because you’ve narrowed down the problem to a conveniently limited set of variables that, in a controlled experiment, would produce ideal outcomes. And just like physicists keep learning time and time again of late, just because the math works on paper doesn’t mean the thing is real . Yours (and every other detractor trying to eSplain Econ101 and market forces to me) ignores the comple…

> hoard property for passive income through rent in lieu of releasing the property onto the market for sale

If the properties are being rented, they are providing shelter. They haven't been "removed" from the housing market.

Your point was not immediately clear, so forgive me if I misunderstood.

Re: The Folk Economics of Housing

#247
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what people want is less migration (both domestic and international) but that's not an option. Since it's the primary thing they want they're doing anything they can to get it including essentially destroying their own neighborhoods.

They want to keep freedom of movement for themselves and restrict other people. Be careful what you vote for: a border keeping “those people” out sounds good until the day you are denied passage!

I'm already not allowed to just declare myself a Mexican citizen. We alone were unusual in allowing that and it turns out it was a mistake.

Re: The Folk Economics of Housing

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not new affordable housing, but the people moving in to the new expensive houses are leaving their old houses, and the people who buy those are leaving their old houses, so eventually the price drops happen on the older, smaller homes at the bottom end of the market. I keep seeing this, but if the housing being vacated is in a different, less-desirable market, it's a bit tree-falling-in-the-woods for locals. I…

This analogy seems confused. If someone in Chicago moves to Seattle, then our policy options are (1) no new condo in Seattle or (2) new condo in Seattle. Under policy 1, the new buyer from Chicago must outbid locals for the fixed housing supply; they will wind up buying older housing stock, which otherwise would have gone to existing local residents. Prices go up. With policy 2, the new entrant buys the new condo and…

I'm talking about perception, not policy. OP's paper is about perception among "rationally ignorant voters", specifically:

> This paper suggests another, complementary explanation for the over-regulation of metropolitan land use: the failure of ordinary voters to appreciate that large, exogenous increases in regional housing stocks would put downward pressure on prices, coupled with voters’ tendency to blame housing providers (developers and landlords) for high prices.

and

> Studies of interregional migration in response to negative employment shocks have tended to find that mobility is lower than economists had expected (Autor, Dorn, and Hanson 2013; Greenland, Lopresti, and McHenry 2019; Yagan 2019; Choi et al. 2024). Similarly, US metro areas with greater regulatory barriers to new supply experienced less housing-stock growth and less in-migration, but no more out-migration, than less constrained metros from 1990 to 2000 (Molloy, Nathanson, and Paciorek 2022). Such frictions mean that regional housing supply shocks will have larger effects on regional than on national prices.

> But again, laypeople have no reason to know of these research studies. Nor do ordinary people have first-hand experience with large, sudden shocks to their metro-region’s housing supply. Regional housing stocks have changed slowly, especially in recent years. Between 2008 and 2023, the total housing stock in the United States increased at an annualized rate of only 0.7 percent, with much of the growth concentrated in only a few active markets (US Census Bureau and US Department of Housing and Urban Development 2023a). Meanwhile, national median home prices have risen consistently except during recessions (US Census Bureau and US Department of Housing and Urban Development 2023b). It would be no great leap for the layperson to infer that only macroeconomic factors and financial markets, and not local supply-side factors, such as land-use restrictions, determine housing prices.

Part of that perception is in locals' belief that new high-end local housing stock can help affordability _only_ if it frees up affordable units in the local market. If the perception is that new high-end units aren't freeing up lower-end units _in the same market_, then locals are going to complain to electeds and oppose new developments, regardless of whether it's rational to do so.

It's Sisyphean to prove to a local that an outsider buying up an attractive unit priced out of the local's reach is actually a good thing for the local; there's no visible benefit and they receive no tangible relief from it. They couldn't afford a home before the new stock is built, and they can't afford a home after the new stock is fully occupied. Either the benefits are on a long timescale, or there are larger problems than housing stock influencing affordability.

The "people moving in to the new expensive houses are leaving their old houses" argument then becomes a non-starter because of the "rationally ignorant" but anecdotally pervasive argument among locals that these new developments aren't helping them.

- Locals see an influx of people from other cities/states/countries moving into attractive units that were built with prices that locals already can't afford. It doesn't matter whether that influx is 10% of the new stock or 100% of the new stock; these new outsiders stand out in _perception_ regardless of reality.

- Locals likewise don't see a short-term increase in attractive housing stock that they can afford, else they'd have already tried to acquire it.

- Developers point to affordable, vacant housing stock, but when that stock isn't in equally attractive places to live as the unaffordable stock, locals don't consider it to be beneficial to them. The fact that the unattractive place would likely become more attractive over time is a hard sell in places where that pitch has failed to materialize in the recent past due to things unrelated to housing stock (COVID, local recessions, outmigration events).

- Locals seeking affordable housing in attractive areas start advocating for enforced rent modifications or pricing mandates that developers oppose.

- Locals are voters who can influence electeds that control policy, and non-locals who haven't yet moved here aren't, so the battle enters the political sphere with a tilt toward locals. Either the government caters to voters and enacts anti-development policies, causing developers to slow down in or exit the local market, or developers lobby the government, causing voters to rebel against electeds and protest harder against developers.

The cycle grinds local regulation to a standstill. Locals get no net benefit in the local housing market, perpetuating the underlying problems. Everyone's perception of everyone else in the situation degrades further, making further changes harder to enact.

Re: The Folk Economics of Housing

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a brief time 15 or so years ago where the $200-500k homes in the six or so blocks I live in were being snapped up by young upper-middle-class families on long 3-4% mortgages. Those families' kids have now grown up, and the houses have appreciated, sometimes as much as 2-3x, due to a nearby light rail development connecting the neighborhood to the city at large on cheap transit. So those families are cashing…

> out of spite Or, they're just protecting their property value and neighborhood composition, like anyone else would do.

> Or, they're just protecting their property value

Nearby property development often increases property values. People are not fighting developers because of money.

Re: The Folk Economics of Housing

#250
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes sense in a world where the market adjusts rationally and there's an unbroken chain of people from different levels of wealth who can afford to buy houses. Unfortunately in the US right now, that is not reflective of the present scenario due to the immense generational wealth gap and housing bubble.

But that's a supply problem. Create the supply, prices will drop and that bubble and generational wealth challenge begins to heal.

The US has 28 empty homes for every homeless person.

It's a market manipulation problem that's not going to go away for as long as we maintain the perverse incentive of using real estate as an investment vehicle. Japan has never had this problem and likely never will because housing depreciates in value there like cars. A 30-year-old house is often worthless or near-worthless in Japan.

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