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OCaml as my primary language

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Re: OCaml as my primary language

#241

Post by pjmlp »

StopDisinfo910 wrote: post #239
pjmlp wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I advise you to educate yourself who works and owns OpenJDK copyrights. Can start here, https://dev.java/contribute/openjdk/ "Once you have contributed several changes (usually two) you can become an Author. An author has the right to create patches but cannot push them. To push a patch, you need a Sponsor. Gaining a sponsorship is usually achieved through the discussions you had on the mailing lists. In order to bec…

You wrote than 80% of OpenJDK was written by Oracle employees. That’s patently untrue. Most of OpenJDK was written by Sun employees before Oracle bought Sun. Your link doesn’t change any of that nor your clearly condescending comment before. You are perfectly aware of the fact by the way and you know exactly what I meant so I don’t really understand the game you are playing. Oracle can claim Sun contribution as their…

What is pathetic is the quality of your answers, who do you think has written the code between Java 6 and Java 24?

I wonder what magic pixie dust has been writing Java code since 2013, those Sun employees have been working really hard on their ghost offices, surrounded by Oracle daemons, down in the dungeons.

I am playing the FACTS game.

Re: OCaml as my primary language

#242

Post by johnisgood »

sestep wrote: post #240
johnisgood wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is still there according to "opam show dune --all-versions", so no, it has not been removed. Anyways, what you could do is: opam pin add dune 3.7.0 opam install dune Alternatively, you can use the tarball directly: opam pin add dune https://github.com/ocaml/dune/releases/download/3.7.0/dune-3.7.0.tbz

I tried going back to change my Dockerfile to see if that would work, and it did not: RUN eval $(opam env) && opam pin add dune 3.7.0 && opam install --yes dune Similar error to before: [ERROR] Package dune has no known version 3.7.0 in the repositories You're right that I could change it to grab directly from GitHub, but at that point I can also just change it to a different version of Dune, as I said above. None of…

What if you do "opam update" before?

Re: OCaml as my primary language

#243

Post by le-mark »

noelwelsh wrote: post #33

I saw a talk by someone from Google about their experiences using Rust in the Android team. Two points stuck out: they migrated many projects from Python, so performance can't have been that much of a concern, and in their surveys the features people liked most were basics like pattern matching and ADTs. My conclusion is that for a lot of tasks the benefit from Rust came from ML cicra 1990, not lifetimes etc. I feel…

The way ocaml mashes the object syntax into sml was always most annoying to me. It was also pretty weak on the systems programming side (threads, sockets, signals, fork) 20-30 years ago iirc. That’s probably changed by now. Multi core; not many runtimes handle this today so that’s not much of a hindrance IME.

Re: OCaml as my primary language

#244

Post by StopDisinfo910 »

pjmlp wrote: post #241
StopDisinfo910 wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You wrote than 80% of OpenJDK was written by Oracle employees. That’s patently untrue. Most of OpenJDK was written by Sun employees before Oracle bought Sun. Your link doesn’t change any of that nor your clearly condescending comment before. You are perfectly aware of the fact by the way and you know exactly what I meant so I don’t really understand the game you are playing. Oracle can claim Sun contribution as their…

What is pathetic is the quality of your answers, who do you think has written the code between Java 6 and Java 24? I wonder what magic pixie dust has been writing Java code since 2013, those Sun employees have been working really hard on their ghost offices, surrounded by Oracle daemons, down in the dungeons. I am playing the FACTS game.

There is no facts game. I am in full agreement with you that Oracle maintains Java nowadays and writes most of the modern code in it. It remains originally a Sun product, a Sun initiative and most of the JVM historical code has been written by Sun. I have little interest in going to actually look in how many lines are from then and how many are new. It wouldn’t substantially change the nature of my argument anyway.

You are free to pretend that Oracle is a great steward of the Java ecosystem if you want or that they had a point in the trial they so brilliantly lost.

I’m free to say I vehemently disagree and perfectly understand why Google would rather stay far away.

I would rather prefer you didn’t insult me however but you do you.

Re: OCaml as my primary language

#245

Post by abathologist »

grumpyprole wrote: post #173
pshirshov wrote: post #126

Extremely dated. No HKTs, no typeclasses (modules are not a good substitute), no call-site expansion.

True, but then concurrency via algebraic effects makes it look more modern than Rust.

Almost as if the development of PLs is not a straight line of monotonically additive features XD

Re: OCaml as my primary language

#246

Post by wink »

owlstuffing wrote: post #156
whimsicalism wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scala was always going to be hamstrung by the fact that it's a JVM language and yes, the crazy stuff people did with the language didn't help.

I agree w that, but I think Scala has deeper problems. It tries to be a better Java and a better OCaml at the same time. This split personality led to Scala’s many dialects, which made it notorious for being difficult to read and reason about, particularly as a mainstream language contender. Above all, Scala is considered a functional language with imperative OOP qualities. And it more or less fits that description.…

Scala unfortunately feels a lot like Perl. Three people write in four different styles.

I mean, that was my beginner impression and at least half of the Scala developers I asked about this agreed. Also I just never found the improvement over Java good enough, that wasn't worth all the downsides. This is even more true with modern Java or Kotlin. Same benefits but it's easier to read, not harder.

Re: OCaml as my primary language

#247

Post by sestep »

johnisgood wrote: post #242
sestep wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried going back to change my Dockerfile to see if that would work, and it did not: RUN eval $(opam env) && opam pin add dune 3.7.0 && opam install --yes dune Similar error to before: [ERROR] Package dune has no known version 3.7.0 in the repositories You're right that I could change it to grab directly from GitHub, but at that point I can also just change it to a different version of Dune, as I said above. None of…

What if you do "opam update" before?

I already do: https://github.com/gradbench/gradbench/blob/0276272d0df5be19...

And the CI build doesn't use Docker caching, so no shenanigans there.

Re: OCaml as my primary language

#248

Post by legobmw99 »

sestep wrote: post #53
johnisgood wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Use "opam lock" and "opam pin". Additionally, Dune's lockdir feature uses opam's solver internally to generate a lock directory containing ".opam.locked" files for every dependency. This is Dune's way of having fully reproducible builds without relying on opam's switch state alone. Additionally, see: https://dune.readthedocs.io/en/stable/tutorials/dune-package... .

No, the problem is that dune=3.7.0 got removed from the registry entirely.

Yes, the opam repository has recently been working on an archival policy to reduce the size of the checkout and hopefully ease pressure on the dependency resolver by pruning 'obviously' wrong choices. However, the heuristic they chose seems to have mainly assumed that the things in the repository are libraries, and used dependencies for tracking usages. For executables like dune, this is obviously the wrong idea, and I think they're still deciding how to proceed while adding back most versions

Re: OCaml as my primary language

#249

Post by ezst »

noelwelsh wrote: post #33

I saw a talk by someone from Google about their experiences using Rust in the Android team. Two points stuck out: they migrated many projects from Python, so performance can't have been that much of a concern, and in their surveys the features people liked most were basics like pattern matching and ADTs. My conclusion is that for a lot of tasks the benefit from Rust came from ML cicra 1990, not lifetimes etc. I feel…

I feel that whatever "OCaml - the good parts" might be, it lives through Scala today. It's syntactically familiar/pleasing, it deals equally well with your high throughput (JVM), low-footprint (scala-native), web (scala-js/scala-wasm), small script to large monolith needs equally well, and its tooling/community support is orders of magnitude better than the other functional-first "popular" languages (OCaml, Haskell, Clojure, …).

Re: OCaml as my primary language

#250

Post by lmm »

brabel wrote: post #215
lmm wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel if OCaml had got its act together around about 2010 with multicore and a few other annoyances[1] it could have been Rust. No, that wouldn't have made the difference. No-one didn't pick up OCaml because it didn't have multicore or they were annoyed by the semicolons. People don't switch languages because the new language is "old language but better". They switch languages because a) new language does some uni…

I appreciate both OCaml and Rust, but your view seems to be entirely wrong to me, sorry to be blunt. People wouldn't care much for Rust at all if it didn't offer two things that are an absolute killer feature (that OCaml does not have): * no GC, while being memory safe. * high performance on par with C while offering no-cost high level conveniences. There's no other language to this day that offers anything like that…

>> a) new language does some unique thing that the old language didn't do, even if the unique thing is useless and irrelevant

>> b) new language has a bigger number than old language on benchmarks, even if the benchmark is irrelevant to your use case

> * no GC, while being memory safe.

> * high performance on par with C while offering no-cost high level conveniences.

My point exactly!

> was initially backed by a big, trusted company, Mozzila, while OCaml comes from a Research Lab

Mozilla is not large and trustworthy, as you can see by the fact they haven't kept funding Rust development (because they can't afford to)! People weren't picking Rust because it had better backing or a bigger ecosystem, not in the early stages that made the difference - it didn't.

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