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Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

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Re: Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

#241

Post by [deleted] »

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #123
echoangle wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't imagine that the image shown in CarPlay Ultra is still rendered on the phone. It's used to show all driving relevant things (speed etc.). Is a wireless connection to the phone reliable enough so this would be allowed by regulators? I thought the main image would be rendered on the car using local data and only the entertainment stuff is transferred from the phone. And also, how would you drive your car withou…

> I can't imagine that the image shown in CarPlay Ultra is still rendered on the phone. It's used to show all driving relevant things (speed etc.). Is a wireless connection to the phone reliable enough so this would be allowed by regulators? I have some understanding of this being someone who has installed way too many aftermarket head units, and as best I can tell, all the rendering indeed occurs on the phone. The C…

[deleted]

Re: Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

#242

Post by pabs3 »

M95D wrote: post #110
pabs3 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might need security updates for security systems, like immobilisers, keyless entry etc.

The only security update for those is removal . Immobilizers via RFID chip were never broken AFAIK.

Couldn't RFID relay work against those?

Re: Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

#243

Post by CraigJPerry »

themafia wrote: post #99
CraigJPerry wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happened in the early 2010s? 1980s widespread adoption of electronic fuel injection - this is generally a good thing, cars become more complex but run better more of the time 1990s widespread adoption of more advanced emissions control systems - for reliability i'd say this is only a backwards step - none of these systems are required to propel the car down the road but many of them can stop a car from driving.…

> What happened in the early 2010s? According to the industry people stopped doing maintenance and were more likely to trade in their vehicle for a new one. So they stopped optimizing for that segment of the audience and started making disposable cars. Truthfully, industry watched the government bail out the banks, require next to nothing in return, and demanded no prosecutions for illegal behavior. The writing was p…

>> According to the industry people stopped doing maintenance

Nah the motoring industry has been saying that forever. Just to back that up, I inherited a ton of the "Car Mechanics" magazine here in the UK. Just for fun I've just pulled a random 1960s one - November 1965, 2 shillings it cost. Flicking through, firstly i'm struck by just how many adverts there are, there's 1.5 pages of advert per 0.5 page of content and the adverts are commonly absolute tat like antifreeze additives that surely do nothing useful. Anyway, by page 35 we've found our first nobody maintains anything anymore story: "Transport Tests", top right hand side - a column railing against "defective lorries on the road", "49% of trucks stopped were defective" - i knew no matter which magazine i pulled, there'd be something in there decrying a lack of maintenance these days (in 1965...).

>> So they stopped optimizing for that segment

Again, i don't think you're accurate here. There's nothing a mechanic loves more than to gripe about the engineers who foolishly designed a car to be harder to service. It's a time-tested complaint of the mechanic. Today with all the tight packaging of various systems i think there's often a point to be made about ease of repairability but even when engine bays were gaping empty holes in the 50s and 60s that you could literally stand in (in some cases) with plenty of access space while you worked, there were models of cars derided as "hard to work on" because of lack of optimisation for maintenance. Packaging is hard. If the decision is between optimising for sale (aesthetics, packaging etc) or for maintenance, the design engineer is going to lose that battle in the drawing room.

I think market forces have changed how manufacturers view servicing over time though. If you're doing fleet sales, and your product requires an oil change every 8k miles and the other manufacturer is every 20k miles, then the company purchaser who cares not a jot about mechanical sympathy and a whole lot about a bonus for saving the firm money, applies a pressure to the market to reduce maintenance costs over the first 3-4 years that a vehicle is leased for. And so today i own a van with an absolutely absurd oil change interval of 25k miles.

Re: Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

#244

Post by CraigJPerry »

numpad0 wrote: post #75
CraigJPerry wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happened in the early 2010s? 1980s widespread adoption of electronic fuel injection - this is generally a good thing, cars become more complex but run better more of the time 1990s widespread adoption of more advanced emissions control systems - for reliability i'd say this is only a backwards step - none of these systems are required to propel the car down the road but many of them can stop a car from driving.…

2010s, in software, vertical integration, and digital feudalism? iPhone?

Hmmm, but I think that was already happening in the early 2000s. It definitely accelerated in the late 2000s.

I worked for a deutsche telekom subsidiary in 2004 and they had a brand new BMW e65 7 Series all liveried up in corporate branding, advertising internet connectivity on the move. At the time i thought that was the ultimate car but i never managed to borrow it...

£10 per megabyte as i recall.

Re: Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

#245

Post by themafia »

CraigJPerry wrote: post #243
themafia wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What happened in the early 2010s? According to the industry people stopped doing maintenance and were more likely to trade in their vehicle for a new one. So they stopped optimizing for that segment of the audience and started making disposable cars. Truthfully, industry watched the government bail out the banks, require next to nothing in return, and demanded no prosecutions for illegal behavior. The writing was p…

>> According to the industry people stopped doing maintenance Nah the motoring industry has been saying that forever. Just to back that up, I inherited a ton of the "Car Mechanics" magazine here in the UK. Just for fun I've just pulled a random 1960s one - November 1965, 2 shillings it cost. Flicking through, firstly i'm struck by just how many adverts there are, there's 1.5 pages of advert per 0.5 page of content an…

> i don't think you're accurate here.

You're approaching this as if it would be a binary across an entire industry. That's obviously not the correct level of analysis. The question is, "are more and more manufacturers doing this?" You've made no case to this point.

> And so today i own a van with an absolutely absurd oil change interval of 25k miles.

Would you share the Year, Make and Model please? I want to see this and I want to see precisely which oil products they recommend. The part you may have missed is that specialty oils have come a long way in the last 2 decades.

Re: Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

#246

Post by farmdve »

aidenscott2016 wrote: post #217
farmdve wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You guessed correctly.

I’ve been following that thread very closely. Prepping myself to install cruise control but as I have a cem-b in my car, I have to solder to the board. What changes have you made?

For the CEM, I have done no modifications, yet. I have however spent a fair amount of time, reverse engineering the AW55 firmware and have discovered virtually all the maps related to the shifting process, pressures, speeds etc. I have a completely understanding of how the firmware works.

To say I am the only one with such a complete understanding and tuning abilities for it, may not be an understatement.

Re: Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

#247

Post by integralid »

ethagnawl wrote: post #192
eitally wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently had a similarly unfriendly experience in my inlaws' new Lexus, which has an accompanying mobile app for vehicle management and some advanced setup features. How did we learn about this almost completely required app & mobile setup process? If you start driving with Google Maps via Android Auto it will terminate the AA interface after a few minute and replace it with a nag screen about setting up the Lexus…

> There is no alternative but to comply. Maybe not within the confines of the head unit but you can still stick your phone onto the dash like I do in my (dumb) cars.

The story is still infuriating. You can't use what you paid for, unless you comply with what the manufacturer wants.

Re: Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

#249

Post by franga2000 »

singleshot_ wrote: post #230
kube-system wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wouldn't be a very solid argument. Telematics are universally disclaimed in owners manuals. A good chunk of modern owners manuals are legally-required disclaimers of various sorts which are all deemed valid for those reasons. And a ruling that it doesn't matter because "nobody reads that" wouldn't be a good thing either -- basically that would make most SaaS engineer into criminals.

Further: Safer roads and more convenient travel comport with public policy; and, No one in 2025 has a reasonable expectation they are not being surveilled by their new car. (FWIW, I’m against surveillance transport but there is no reasonable way to say these contracts of adhesion are unconscionable under US law).

> No one in 2025 has a reasonable expectation they are not being surveilled by their new car.

This is not even slightly true. People are barely aware of the fact their car has any connectivity in the first place, let alone that it tracks everything you do in a way that's tied to your real life identity.

You're probably, talking mostly to us "techies". Anyone else probably wouldn't be too surprised if you told them, but they definitely wouldn't expect it to be like that.

Re: Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

#250

Post by M95D »

pabs3 wrote: post #242
M95D wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only security update for those is removal . Immobilizers via RFID chip were never broken AFAIK.

Couldn't RFID relay work against those?

Not likely, because they're extremely short range (one centimeter or so). The attacker would need to turn the duplicate key in the ignition exactly at the time the other attacker bumps into the owner, exactly on the correct side where the pocket with the key is, and precisely match the position of the key in the pocket with the antenna in the attacker's pocket/bag/whatever. And if the key is in a handbag, then good luck trying to get a reader close to it.

But then, how would they get a duplicate of the ignition key?

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