Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#241

Post by danaris » Mon, Jul 14, 2025, 3:47 PM UTC

selckin wrote: post #6

This Apple policy is the only thing stopping chrome from having a full monopoly, and we should be careful trying to remove it

Unfortunately, the problem is that what's needed is for a massive special antitrust operation to address the tech sector as a whole, unravel all the various anticompetitive, bundling, and otherwise monopolistic behavior they all engage in, and implement remedies on all of them at once.

But the US's system certainly doesn't allow that (and, of course, there isn't going to be any serious antitrust in the US for the foreseeable future anymore). I have no idea if the EU's does, but I really don't think they have sufficient jurisdiction to do things like break up Apple, Google, and Microsoft. Which is definitely necessary to address these problems.

Make no mistake: the reason we are here is because of the morally- and intellectually-bankrupt shift to the Chicago School-backed philosophy of antitrust under Reagan, coupled with a government—at all levels, in all branches—that didn't understand technology, and collectively refused to learn, for decades.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#242

Post by bilbo0s » Mon, Jul 14, 2025, 3:49 PM UTC

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #230

SpikedCola wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the same way, Apple is equally difficult about forcing the use of Apple Maps. If you receive an address in an iMessage, clicking/long-holding will always open in Apple Maps. There is no way to share to Google Maps (it doesn't appear in the list), and the default setting to use Google Maps doesn't affect iMessage. You have to copy the address, switch to Google Maps, paste it in, and search. I would much prefer clic…

[flagged]

Yeah. That particular one is definitely a case of “not today Satan”.

I do wish there was a non-privacy invading maps app outside of Apple though.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#243

Post by Seattle3503 » Mon, Jul 14, 2025, 3:49 PM UTC

danbruc wrote: post #212

stockresearcher wrote: post #103

Even if you get past the roadblocks Apple has put in place, it’s not beer and skittles for browser makers in the EU. The CRA, which is now in effect, lists browsers as class I important products. Technical documentation, design documentation, user documentation, security conformance testing, a declared support period at the time of download, software bill of materials, the legal obligation to respond to and make all…

We are not generally used to this in our field but just think about the amount of paperwork you have to go through in order to construct a bridge or an airplane. Browsers have become a critical component and it seem not really unexpected that there will eventually be legal requirements to help to ensure that browsers are safe given the amount of software that runs on top of browsers. And this is also not new, there h…

How will regulations on browsers make us safer though?

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#244

Post by lern_too_spel » Mon, Jul 14, 2025, 3:49 PM UTC

bitpush wrote: post #237

pxeger1 wrote: post #113

Relatedly, all Google apps (e.g. Maps) on iOS try very hard to push Chrome on you (even though iOS Chrome still has to use WebKit). When you click an external link, they present you the options of Chrome, Google (the search app), or Safari. This happens even if you don't have Chrome/Google installed, so they take you to the App Store instead of opening the webpage. If you choose Safari, it still doesn't open Safari,…

I admire your skill in bringing up, and distracting everyone with Google in a post about Apple's shenanigans. No love lost for Google, but wasnt expecting to read about Google as a top comment on Apple thread.

Especially because the thing he's complaining about doesn't happen on Android. Why? Probably because Android supported setting a default browser app from the beginning, while iOS forced all links to open in Safari by default.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#245

Post by stockresearcher » Mon, Jul 14, 2025, 3:50 PM UTC

danaris wrote: post #225

stockresearcher wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have two comments: First, I believe that you are correct in that small enterprises are not going to be fined out of existence (unless they continually fail to adhere to CRA requirements). The issue is that if you want to make a browser in the EU, you have to be extremely serious about it. Second, you are quoting from the section of the act that the EU uses to lay out their reasoning, justification, and thought proc…

> if you want to make a browser in the EU, you have to be extremely serious about it. Why is this a problem? No, really; why is it a bad thing that if you want to create a complete new browser, you have to actually be serious and committed to it? A web browser is a pretty significant piece of software, and it sits between you and the entire web . You do your banking through it. You access your email through it. You b…

Yes, I don't want to say that this is a problem (or not a problem).

The original article has a quote from Apple saying that they don't know why nobody has submitted any new browser for them to approve and then goes on to list a bunch of reasons for why this is the case. All of which center on Apple being obstinate. If Apple was suddenly a nice friendly corporation, would the browser landscape in the EU change much?

The CRA has been law for less than 9 months. I don't think that the general software developer community has awaken to what it is going to involve when full enforcement begins in 2027. I believe that at least some of the people that had originally planned to create new browsers in the EU have reconsidered now that they know what their obligations in 1.5 years will be. And that is probably a good thing (but not Apple's fault).

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#246

Post by FirmwareBurner » Mon, Jul 14, 2025, 3:50 PM UTC

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #182

hshdhdhj4444 wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, because EU software companies were totally destroying the American software industry before the last decade… The EU’s relatively shrinking GDP has much more to do with their populations growing older and their population size stabilizing, and the relatively tiny amount of migration, than EU digital laws, most of which have been replicated throughout the world. Additionally, the EU has always had weak financial…

That's not necessarily true; as the EU had many major players, especially historically: SUSE, Ericsson, Nokia, SAP; all were or are being shredded by US competition despite a domestically entrenched position. Even in 2008, when both economies did badly, the EU and the US had nearly identical GDP figures. The EU might point to ASML as a point of pride; but that assumes an ASML competitor wouldn't get tens of billions…

ASML (plus Airbus, SAP and Spotify) can't feed 300 million EU workers. Europe needs more than just a point of pride on the entire continent to be an economic powerhouse. Like we say in my country: "a single bloomed flower does not make spring".

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#247

Post by fkyoureadthedoc » Mon, Jul 14, 2025, 3:51 PM UTC

caseyohara wrote: post #214

jermaustin1 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reddit does this, too. It is used to measure sharing something as some sort of analytic/goal on your account for engagement. I tend to just screenshot them now after the annoying middle menu started popping up for me. I really am not a fan of apps wanting me to engage more with the app when I'm trying to engage with real-life people.

Reddit also has that annoying pop-up when you screenshot something. “Sending this post to someone? It looks better when you share it.” Perhaps they mean it looks better for Reddit’s smarmy user engagement metrics.

There's an option in settings where you can disable the Reddit frame the put around shared images

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#248

Post by troupo » Mon, Jul 14, 2025, 3:52 PM UTC

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #230

SpikedCola wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the same way, Apple is equally difficult about forcing the use of Apple Maps. If you receive an address in an iMessage, clicking/long-holding will always open in Apple Maps. There is no way to share to Google Maps (it doesn't appear in the list), and the default setting to use Google Maps doesn't affect iMessage. You have to copy the address, switch to Google Maps, paste it in, and search. I would much prefer clic…

[flagged]

It's worse than that. Apple will let users set a default maps app... only in the EU https://mjtsai.com/blog/2025/03/14/dma-compliance-default-ma...

The pettiness is off the charts

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#249

Post by troupo » Mon, Jul 14, 2025, 3:53 PM UTC

kccqzy wrote: post #192

pxeger1 wrote: post #113

Relatedly, all Google apps (e.g. Maps) on iOS try very hard to push Chrome on you (even though iOS Chrome still has to use WebKit). When you click an external link, they present you the options of Chrome, Google (the search app), or Safari. This happens even if you don't have Chrome/Google installed, so they take you to the App Store instead of opening the webpage. If you choose Safari, it still doesn't open Safari,…

I do not experience this at all. I remember having seen the browser choice screen in Google Maps but it consistently remembers my setting and does not nag me each time. My default browser isn't even Safari (it's Quiche Browser) and Google Maps correctly opens Quiche Browser whenever I click on a link.

All Google apps will forget this setting at one point. Usually after an update.

They used to be significantly more aggressive with it, but have dialed it back

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#250

Post by dmonitor » Mon, Jul 14, 2025, 3:54 PM UTC

OptionOfT wrote: post #203

technimad wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a user I don’t get why Apple allows this user hostile behavior in an app they distribute in their app store.The platform has alternatives. iOS has a sharing sheet. iOS has a default browser setting (in EU).

Same with Reddit. They have their own share sheet, and then 'other' which goes to the iOS built-in one. I wish Apple was more strict on this. There is no reason for them to have their own. Same with the photo viewer. I love the iOS photo viewer, it allows me to select text directly to copy it etc, but Reddit needs to use their own. On the other hand, it should be possible for me to set up a default photo viewer.

My guess is that the custom share sheet lets reddit see what services users are sharing to