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Microsoft suspended the email account of an ICC prosecutor at The Hague

nytimes.com

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Re: Microsoft suspended the email account of an ICC prosecutor at The Hague

#241

Post by SllX »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #225
SllX wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly that is our problem to worry about.

US interventionalism over the course of its existence would make that a form of hypocrisy. Also where would the US be without support of nations like France, Spain and the Dutch Republic in its revolutionary war? You can't have it both ways, we're intrinsically tied together. I think its important part of friendship to call one another to account.

Well let me put it this way, I’m under no illusions that foreign nations will always attempt to exert their influence over American affairs. The only obligations we maintain with other nations are the ones we committed ourselves to, and yes, I know some of that is in question right now, but for what it’s worth I’m actually on the side of maintaining our commitments rather than pissing all over them or playing this silly “will they, won’t they” game. Our relationships with nations across the world, most of which did not exist or at least did not exist in anything like their current form including France, the Kingdom of the Netherlands née the Dutch Republic, and Spain (which we have actually and directly waged war with) have not remained static since the Revolutionary War.

All of that said, our Government, our problem, and while weighing what kind of intervention you might hypothetically support, also weigh how that stands up to the power of the Commander-in-Chief of the United States Armed Forces. So, really, we can have it both ways, even if that makes us hypocrites. Also for what it is worth: people can be hypocrites, organized entities led by different factions of people over the course of their history like nations cannot.

Re: Microsoft suspended the email account of an ICC prosecutor at The Hague

#242

Post by freeopinion »

SllX wrote: post #107
jeremyjh wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds...appropriate? I would have no issues with every living former US President being accountable for their crimes, and I expect they would all be convicted.

It’s not appropriate for an international court that we’re not even a part of to put our Presidents and their subordinates on trial, nor is it something we should meekly concede to.

I don't advocate for the U.S. to concede its sovereignty to an outside court.

But I do think that having an outside court publicly try the guilt or innocence of somebody within the U.S. is much more palatable than having some non-court within the U.S. decide on whether non-U.S. citizens living outside the U.S. should live or die.

The U.S. openly assassinates foreigners in foreign countries without even faking a trial.

It's hard to complain that a court with very little power to enforce any ruling is giving U.S. citizens an open trial. Do you think it is inappropriate for a high school moot court team to put U.S. Presidents on trial? Or for speech and debate teams to argue the morality of the actions of U.S. politicians?

How exactly do you judge what is appropriate and what is not?

Re: Microsoft suspended the email account of an ICC prosecutor at The Hague

#243

Post by jordanb »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #194
zombiwoof wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> because Israel bought Trump This is a self-defeating and untrue meme. Most Americans don’t say Israel is very important to them, favourably or not [1]. Historically, Israel was popular in both parties; that has now changed. As a result, being anti-Israel was dumb not because of some APAC [EDIT: AIPAC] conspiracy but because voters generally don’t respond to foreign policy issues (versus kitchen-sink ones) and the v…

I used to believe this kind of argument until Cuba. When I was young, the argument for why the US continues to try to punish Cuba was that Florida is a swing state and there are a lot of passionate anti-Cuba exiles in Florida who vote as a block.

The problem is that Florida hasn't been a swing state in a long time, and yet we continue to embargo Cuba. In fact, Biden made things worse [0]

The reality is that we don't live in a Democracy but an Oligarchy. The American oligarchy includes people who want to keep the boot on Cuba until a Batista-style regime is back in power. Likewise, the oligarchy supports Israel and therefore, so will the US government and it doesn't matter who you vote for.

[0] https://jacobin.com/2024/05/biden-trump-policy-cuba-embargo

Re: Microsoft suspended the email account of an ICC prosecutor at The Hague

#244

Post by SllX »

GTP wrote: post #238
SllX wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sure you want to try and catch me in an act of hypocrisy but I think I’ve been clear throughout this thread. So let me put it to you this way, if the Chilean President had the power of the POTUS backed up by a military equivalent to or superior to the US Military, would the UK have arrested and extradited him on behalf of Spain? So the solution for American Presidents is even simpler than the one you propose: dis…

So, in the end, your point is not whether the ICC should have the right to put foreign presidents on trial. It's about who has got the strongest military power.

My position is that the ICC should not even exist, but if it is going to exist, then America should safeguard itself and its allies from it.

If you look at the real history of the ICC, it’s effectively toothless over any nation that can safeguard its own sovereignty, and otherwise a fig leaf for the supposed lawfulness of foreign intervention into nations that cannot.

Re: Microsoft suspended the email account of an ICC prosecutor at The Hague

#245

Post by GTP »

cnames wrote: post #165
bigtones wrote: post #7

>> Casper Klynge, a former Danish and European Union diplomat who worked for Microsoft, said the episode was in many ways the “smoking gun that many Europeans had been looking for.” Damn right. Strong evidence that Europe should look after their own, and not rely on the good old US of A. Written by an Australian who thinks we should do the same down here.

I’m in the U.S. and don’t want to rely on this stuff either, but I don’t know that I’d really trust any sufficiently complex software. Anything can be compromised. Even if you build from source, your compiler might be compromised, or you buy a cool new usb peripheral and plug it in- boom! Compromised. Bought a new device? Compromised already. That printer you bought years ago? Compromised and in your secure wireless…

Of course you can't protect yourself from everything. But you can still pick a reasonable threat model and act accordingly.

Re: Microsoft suspended the email account of an ICC prosecutor at The Hague

#246

Post by freeopinion »

SllX wrote: post #144
soulofmischief wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We decided to not be a part of it. Meanwhile, we systematically bully other nations and kill high ranking officials with impunity. We can't have our cake and eat it too.

Put another way, we defend American interests.

Please don't conflate the interests of an American with "American interests".

Re: Microsoft suspended the email account of an ICC prosecutor at The Hague

#248

Post by SllX »

FpUser wrote: post #232
SllX wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We’re only talking about today, bruh. There’s no sense worrying about a tomorrow that may never come, but I’m willing to bet that 10 years from now we still have the strongest military in and around The Hague and even beyond, very very few would ever be willing to threaten war with us to back up the ICC. Now, 20 years from now? 30 years from now? 50? Who knows.

>"...very few would ever be willing to threaten war with us to back up the ICC" They would not have to. It will be up to your military to come to allied country and shoot their way through. This might be physically possible but I would imagine that the consequences of it to the standing of the US would be cataclysmic. So unless it is a former president I suspect the US will rather use some severe sanctions and still…

It won’t even come to that because the real truth is that no ICC member is ever going to arrest and extradite to the ICC a sitting or former POTUS putting us in a position where the Marine Corps. would have to roll into The Hague with a carrier group or two nearby and multiple submarine ICBMs aimed at every capital in Europe. Also you know, the American military personnel already situated nearby within Europe on American and NATO bases.

Should the Marine Corps. actually be put into a position to roll in and say “hi” to the people of The Hague for less than peaceful purposes on their leisurely stroll to the ICC’s courthouse, who in their right minds is also going to stand in their way and exchange fire?

Not to mention that whoever arrested the President has now effectively declared war on the United States.

Re: Microsoft suspended the email account of an ICC prosecutor at The Hague

#250

Post by FpUser »

SllX wrote: post #248
FpUser wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"...very few would ever be willing to threaten war with us to back up the ICC" They would not have to. It will be up to your military to come to allied country and shoot their way through. This might be physically possible but I would imagine that the consequences of it to the standing of the US would be cataclysmic. So unless it is a former president I suspect the US will rather use some severe sanctions and still…

It won’t even come to that because the real truth is that no ICC member is ever going to arrest and extradite to the ICC a sitting or former POTUS putting us in a position where the Marine Corps. would have to roll into The Hague with a carrier group or two nearby and multiple submarine ICBMs aimed at every capital in Europe. Also you know, the American military personnel already situated nearby within Europe on Amer…

Taking president of course means war. I mostly meant someone who is not the president, sitting of former. Then it will be the US thinking of potential consequences.
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