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Framework Laptop 12 review

arstechnica.com

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Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#241

Post by richardwhiuk »

paxys wrote: post #228
atrus wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the repairabilty makes it hard to even compare monetary value, since in theory, you'd be keeping the same body, while swapping out the mainboard. Is it cheaper to buy two other laptops compared to one laptop + mainboard? That's what, a 3-5 year timeline? Who knows what prices/capabilities/etc will be like then.

And it isn't just about upgrading for better specs. I'd wager the majority of people's laptop replacement cycle is triggerd by a single part dying (screen, hard disk, keyboard, hinges, PSU), the device being out of warranty, and the store quoting more for the fix than a new device would cost. Being able to purchase the $50 part online and do the repair yourself will probably save the average person thousands over a 3…

Most laptops I know have lasted 5-7 years and then been replaced. It's totally unclear to me that a single part would have changed any of those replacements.

I'm curious if you have a different experience where you ditch a laptop after less than 3 years because a single part has broken as you imply.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#242

Post by kybernetikos »

9283409232 wrote: post #128

> The Core i5 version of the Laptop 12 lasted around 10 hours in the PCMark Modern Office battery life test, which isn't stunning but is a step up from what the fully specced versions of the Framework Laptop 13 can offer. It will be just fine for a long flight or a full day of work or school. This is the key. Framework 12 is a model aimed at schools and corporations. I wouldn't be surprised to see a ChromeOS version…

It's a bit surprising to find so little in these comments and the original review talking about the youth first laptop use-case. Lots of schools require a touch screen, and kids are going to break parts even on a fairly rugged laptop.

All these people talking about MacBook Airs are missing the point. None of the schools around me have MacBook Airs as allowed laptops for kids BYOD and even if they did, I'm not sure they'd have a long life getting the kinds of hits and knocks that will happen being carried everywhere in high school by a 12 year old.

This laptop is obviously for this use case. I know of no other laptop that really covers this use case well. Typically laptops aimed at this segment are cheaper, but not rugged, not easy to repair, and not really very nice. I strongly suspect that I'll only have to replace the screen or keyboard once before the total cost of ownership works out compared to a normal laptop.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#243

Post by bigfatkitten »

bradfa wrote: post #221
hokumguru wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s the current procedure for getting HP or Lenovo or Dell to sell you replacement monitor? What about just a chassis if you drop yours and get a dent? Even a spare battery? If you’re not buying one of their premium business laptops, you’re kind of SOL. How about in five years from now when all of that is still fine, but you just want to replace the mainboard. What about when framework comes out with upgrades down…

Dell Latitude and Lenovo Thinkpad parts are pretty easy to come by on eBay. I’ve bought a handful of different parts from drive caddies, OEM batteries, hinge assemblies, keyboards, and trackpads without much drama. Dell Latitude service manuals are top notch with detailed procedures and diagrams. Dell has a decent track record of maintaining their firmware for a reasonable number of years after release.

Lenovo parts are easy enough to buy direct these days, at least for recent/current models.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#244

Post by simonh »

jekwoooooe wrote: post #238

I like the idea of framework but after using a MacBook for years and having an iPhone, there’s just no competition. Even if the performance could be the same, you just simply don’t have the ecosystem. I can mirror my phone on my Mac (securely). I have unified clipboard and notifications. Not to mention all the other apps that just work across all my Apple devices. Enterprise and commercial software support… I could g…

The counter argument is that Apple could, and should make their devices just as repairable and upgradable and we’d have the best of both worlds. I don’t entirely buy it, I think architectures like the Framework are a trade off, not a pure win. Google tried to build a modular phone but the project seems to have fallen apart (Ho, ho).

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#245

Post by TheGuyWhoCodes »

Tijdreiziger wrote: post #224
chickensong wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first run of Frameworks had a weak hinge on the monitor, which isn't an uncommon problem with other brands of laptop. With Framework, you can easily replace the hinge, but that's unlikely with most other brands, and you'll need to pay to replace the entire monitor. Another example, I didn't need an HDMI port anymore, and wanted an extra USB-C instead. Just a few bucks to swap with Framework, but impossible with o…

It seems that the swappable modules would also make it easy for someone to install e.g. a keylogger, though.

You can lock the modules with a button and also screw them in from the inside.

Not saying it's perfect but it's a far cry from just swapping a module.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#246

Post by jekwoooooe »

simonh wrote: post #244
jekwoooooe wrote: post #238

I like the idea of framework but after using a MacBook for years and having an iPhone, there’s just no competition. Even if the performance could be the same, you just simply don’t have the ecosystem. I can mirror my phone on my Mac (securely). I have unified clipboard and notifications. Not to mention all the other apps that just work across all my Apple devices. Enterprise and commercial software support… I could g…

The counter argument is that Apple could, and should make their devices just as repairable and upgradable and we’d have the best of both worlds. I don’t entirely buy it, I think architectures like the Framework are a trade off, not a pure win. Google tried to build a modular phone but the project seems to have fallen apart (Ho, ho).

Sure they could but they have an edge like framework has an edge. If you value the idea that you can theoretically repair your laptop one day (which is an assumption that it will break) more than everyday usability and features… then that’s your choice. Outside of breaking a screen I’ve never one had a laptop just “break”. And for anything else well… there’s AppleCare.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#247

Post by subsection1h »

jekwoooooe wrote: post #238

I like the idea of framework but after using a MacBook for years and having an iPhone, there’s just no competition. Even if the performance could be the same, you just simply don’t have the ecosystem. I can mirror my phone on my Mac (securely). I have unified clipboard and notifications. Not to mention all the other apps that just work across all my Apple devices. Enterprise and commercial software support… I could g…

> I can mirror my phone on my Mac (securely). I have unified clipboard and notifications. Not to mention all the other apps that just work across all my Apple devices.

Can you provide examples of important work you perform with mobile devices that cause you to prioritize them so heavily? I don't use my phone for any important work, so for me, as a Linux user, choosing macOS as one's primary OS because of its integration with iOS is like someone choosing Windows as their primary OS because they have an Xbox with Game Pass.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#248

Post by aseipp »

pythonaut_16 wrote: post #236
adolph wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the parent comment is referring to its parent's question "Is it unreasonable to think Framework should be able to make a laptop competitive with the 5 years old MacBook Air M1?" That the Framework 12 is not extremely lagging behind the M4 (subjective comparison) might lead one to believe that it would be competitive with an five year old M1 Air. Taking a quick look at "Cinebench R23" from 2020 [0], Macbook Ai…

Does Asahi actually maintain the Macbook's performance and battery advantage when running Linux though?

The performance is great, and now there's a fully stable userspace graphics driver stack. Peripherials basically work. The battery life under load (i.e. development) is serviceable, not terrible, but in my (limited, "I turn on my laptop after some amount of time" testing) it's not even close to macOS especially when turned off. This is with a 13" M2 Air.

It's a really good Linux laptop if you can find a M2 somewhere, IMO.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#249

Post by brudgers »

nucleardog wrote: post #130

> A good laptop, but not a good value Where "value" is purely monetary, I think that pretty succinctly sums up my experience/views on the Framework product line. They make good laptops, but you can generally get more for fewer dollars. If you're shopping on price, you can probably just skip right over their entire product line. That doesn't mean that their offering doesn't have value. It has value has a vote with you…

It has value has a vote with your wallet for sustainable, repairable products.

The author of the fine article’s strategy of used Thinkpads is more sustainable because reuse is among the most sustainable practices and there is an abundance of Thinkpad repair parts and spares machines.

Of course, Thinkpads are not terribly upgradable. But upgrading is often the opposite of sustainable…in many cases CPU’s, etc. are fast-fashionesque.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#250

Post by yread »

paddy_m wrote: post #27

What do you all use for a modern web development machine. 16GB of ram is no longer enough, I will soon upgrade to a new MBA with 32GB, but I still fear that won't be enough. I was looking at the latest framework and you can get it with 96GB of ram for $2k, that's $3600-$3800 for a mac and it's a much larger mac than I want. A quick scan of Dell and Lenovo non workstation class laptops didn't show any with more than 3…

Get a proper laptop where you can install sodimm memory and m2 ssds. A previous gen base model with decent screen Elitebook 8xx or Thinkpad T1x, 128gb ddr5 kit is 300€, 4tb ssd 200€ and you dont have to worry about upgrades. My 5yr old machine has 64gb/4tb, it was doable for a long time
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