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German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

politico.eu

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Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#241

Post by FireBeyond »

pkaye wrote: post #133
FireBeyond wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? There is no way any of those engines would pass emissions in the EU. How are US regulations even stricter?

Back in 2015 US EPA NOx emission limits were tighter than EU regulations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#U...

I feel this also has a lot to do with the use of diesel. The number of passenger vehicles and light duty pickups in the US that actually use diesel is a fraction of what it was in Europe.

The emission limits being for ULEV vehicles, I don't think I have seen a ULEV truck - indeed California classifies most under the LEV banner.

None of this is to change the point around nitrous oxide emissions - the environment doesn't care whether it came from a VW TDI or a F350, just the amount.

But it is also far far easier to implement such low emission standards in the US because we just don't really use diesel like that.

And when you get to the heavy duty pickups (F250, F350, etc.), then most of that goes out of the window.

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#242

Post by SoftTalker »

triceratops wrote: post #144
SoftTalker wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real theft by employees is also extremely common. Especially in retail and food service.

And is treated as a criminal matter. But the manager telling employees to clock out before their shift ends is a civil matter.

Most often an employee caught stealing is just fired. If there's significant value involved perhaps the police would get a call.

Telling an employee to clock out and keep working is a labor law violation, that's not just a civil matter. It happens, but often with the agreement of the employee. I.e. "I know you're about to hit overtime, so if you clock out I'll give you cash, otherwise I have to send you home."

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#243

Post by GuB-42 »

hermitcrab wrote: post #5

Good for Germany, but it is all too rare to see bad corporate behaviour punished like this. Steal £10k from a company, and you will probably go to prison for a long time. Start a company and steal billions from your customers and/or the tax payer, and you will probably get away with it. I believe Iceland was the only country to jail bankers after the 2008 banking disaster. We are still waiting for the British governm…

And I think there is a good reason for that. When a company steals billions from customers, the entire company is responsible, and the entire company profits from the crime. So why single out a few executives? Everyone shall be punished: the CEO of course, but also every employee, every shareholder. You have a single VW stock, you are responsible too.

So, how do you punish everyone fairly? By fining the company for a large amount of money. Shareholders lose their value, employees don't get their raise, and execs won't get their bonus, there is a good chance they get fired too. Companies are for profit, it is even more true for public companies, for which profit is their duty to their shareholders. So hit where it hurts, that is profits.

As for jailing CEOs, what will it bring? Don't forget that a CEO is just an employee, hired by the directors to maximize profits for the shareholders. If the entire company is corrupt, everyone will be more than happy to hire scapegoat CEOs if it can serve their interests. Jailing them will solve nothing, it may even be counter productive as those who are most likely to get that job are people who are ready to risk prison to win big, a crime lord profile.

There are still reasons to jail the CEO, but only if he personally deceived the rest of the company and shareholders, but that is effectively the same as stealing from the company.

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#244

Post by constantcrying »

throwaway81523 wrote: post #132

This article is better though nothing I've seen names the executives (different media law maybe). https://www.dw.com/en/4-ex-vw-managers-guilty-of-fraud-over-... "A former head of diesel engine development was sentenced to four and a half years in prison. The former head of drive electronics received two years and seven months in prison. The highest-ranking defendant, a former member of the Volkswagen brand's develop…

>Doesn't sound like it got near the C suite.

Your quote shows that it was the CTO who got the suspended sentence and the trial for the CEO is pending. The head of the board was indicted as well, but not convicted.

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#245

Post by pqtyw »

neilv wrote: post #195
pqtyw wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What US competitors? Tesla is the only single American company that has had any success besides maybe Ford (but Ford Europe has a similar relationship to it's American parent company that Opel and GM used to have i.e. in a large part it's an European company)

I'm not sure only the German market was meant by OP. VW has international sales, and OP's implication might've been that Germany has a national interest in VW being competitive.

> only the German market

Well yes, I of course meant the entire EU+UK market. Regardless besides US and a handful of other countries VW is hardly competing that much with any American car companies anywhere (besides Tesla).

American car makers are still struggling a lot more in relative market share terms (GM+Ford+Tesla barely had over 33% in 2024 in the US). While VW alone had 26% in EU/UK/EFTA (just German companies have 39% of the entire market there)

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#246

Post by const_cast »

try_the_bass wrote: post #110
Teever wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't theft. If an employee completes all the work assigned to them and passes performance reviews then what you're describing is a suboptimal use of the employees on the part of the employer.

> If an employee completes all the work assigned to them I don't think this was implied in their statement?

Even if it wasn't, being a poor worker still isn't theft, and it's the companies responsibility to both measure and correct employee performance. If they're bad at that and these things go under the radar, that's still on the employer.

The only way employees can steal is if they steal time, like clocking in then going home. Salary employees are not paid by time, so they cannot steal time. Employers want to have their cake and eat it too - they want to consider salary employees not time based when it comes to OT, but when it comes to day-to-day they DO want them to be considered time-based. Not how it works. Your workers being bad at their job is not theft, it's just incompetence.

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#247

Post by constantcrying »

Drunk_Engineer wrote: post #116

The headline says "execs" but I don't see any Board members getting prison terms. Martin Winterkorn, the CEO, has basically escaped prosecution altogether.

>but I don't see any Board members getting prison terms.

The head of development, a board member, got a suspended sentence.

>Martin Winterkorn, the CEO, has basically escaped prosecution altogether.

How so?

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#248

Post by const_cast »

lurk2 wrote: post #84
FirmwareBurner wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rich people are above the law precisely because they use corporations and corporate laws as shields to deflect personal liability of their actions as a actions of "the company" which is a faceless entity. "You see, I didn't steal your money, the company I ran stole your money, but that's actually on you because you didn't read the fine print I put in the contract you signed. And don't worry, justice was served, the c…

> I didn't steal your money, the company I ran stole your money This isn’t how it works.

This is exactly how it works. Liability spread out over even just 10 people is so much less risky than one person.

A corporation can do pretty much anything. Steal, lie, poison communities, give people HIV. Anything.

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#249

Post by constantcrying »

saravanan2661 wrote: post #138

Where can one find these "defeat devices"? (asking for educational purposes)

The ECUs, the computer controlling the engine was programmed in a way in which it could detect the conditions of a test being run and alter it's behavior.

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#250

Post by immibis »

tyre wrote: post #149
jxjnskkzxxhx wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually it happens only if you steal from investors. Stealing from consumers is fine.

Matt Levine: “I find all of this so weird because of how it elevates finance. [Various cases] imply that we are not entitled to be protected from pollution as citizens, or as humans. [Another] implies that we are not entitled to be told the truth as citizens. (Which: is true!) Rather, in each case, we are only entitled to be protected from lies as shareholders. The great harm of pollution, or of political dishonesty,…

Obviously the solution is to buy one share in every company.
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