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Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

yle.fi

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Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#241

Post by Retric »

vintermann wrote: post #191
Retric wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of ranges are you expecting from these small drones so logistics suddenly doesn’t matter? Even if something can hypothetically travel thousands of miles, designing disposable weapons with that kind of range has a real cost.

Sure, logistics matter. I'm sure Russian-gauge railroads in Finland would be mildly convenient for invading Sweden, provided you can first invade and utterly defeat Finland quickly enough that the railways survive. But if Putin could do that (he can't), railway gauges would be the least of our worries.

So the drone bit was a non sequitur.

As to railways surviving it’s relatively difficult to effectively destroy rail infrastructure. Making the call to cripple your internal infrastructure is tough especially in such a dire situation, it’s also a really large target. Taking out some strategic bridges is easier but most local issues can be quickly fixed when you talking million men armies.

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#242

Post by IAmBroom »

panick21_ wrote: post #35

Doing this is a really nice opportunity for Finland. The should bundle it with many other upgrade. Doing general maintenance. Upgrade all the signaling (ETCS L2). Overhead electrify everything. Do minor speed upgrades. And so on. If you are not doing all of this at once, this likely isn't worth it.

The signalling you are describing is more complex and possibly more expensive than switching rail. Source: I work in rail traffic engineering.

The idea is simple. Ensuring everything is smooth and safe = cost multiplier.

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#243

Post by IAmBroom »

rurban wrote: post #31

Now we only need the announcement of Deutsche Bahn to convert fully to electrical, abandoning the gas locomotives, paving the way to interact with more advanced railway nations like Poland.

Unrelated in every way except it involves rail.

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#245

Post by iggldiggl »

anticensor wrote: post #163
dotancohen wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The difference between Finnish and Russian gauge is 4mm What is the acceptable tolerance? It doesn't sound like a huge engineering effort to design a boogie compatible with both without requiring switching.

Yes, the acceptable tolerance is -4mm+7mm.

Where? Finland specifically, or elsewhere? Both my local tram system in Germany as well as DB as the national infrastructure operator in Germany have construction tolerances of only +/- 2 mm. Maintenance tolerances on the other hand can be quite a bit larger, at least in the plus direction (on the order of 15/20/25 mm).

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#246

Post by logifail »

zokier wrote: post #137
vesinisa wrote: post #14

Here's a much better article from the Finnish public broadcaster giving more context: https://yle.fi/a/74-20161606 My comments: The important thing to note that at this point it's just a political posturing and an announcement of intent. They haven't shown any concrete technical plan how this would actually be executed. > "Of course, we are very pragmatic and realistic, we cannot do this in five years. Planning will…

There is one reason for optimism here: Finnish rail network is in quite poor shape and needs major work done anyways. So switching gauge allows funneling more EU funding into these projects that would need to be done either way. I imagine that e.g. the infamous Suomi-rata and ELSA projects will be revived as gauge switch.

> funneling more EU funding

I'm sure EU taxpayers will be presented with a solid business case demonstrating value for money before our €billions are spent on a project such as this.

Oh, wait, this is the EU.

Most likely a deal would be thrashed out between key players via Whatsapp but that "due to their ephemeral nature"[0] we aren't entitled to read any of their messages.

[0] see https://www.politico.eu/article/pfizergate-ursula-von-der-le...

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#247

Post by [deleted] »

oblio wrote: post #173
pydry wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fear of foreign invasion is also why the Soviet Union invaded during the Winter War ("Greater Finland" irredentism was a thing, and St Petersburg was militarily exposed). Fear is why Finland allied with the Nazis. Fear is why the Soviet Union also signed a pact with the Nazis and invaded Ukraine. It's easy to justify anything with fear.

One is the biggest country on the planet, with 150 million people. The other one is about 300 sqkm with 5 million people. When in doubt, use basic logic. Your argument is the same as Iraq being a realistic threat against the US. Also, list of Russian neighbors not threatened or invaded by Russia: Belarus (pushed into a sort of union state) China (too big) Japan (I think) Mongolia (I think) Azerbaijan (I think) List o…

[deleted]

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#248

Post by apexalpha »

IAmBroom wrote: post #238
apexalpha wrote: post #157

At least the Russian gage is broader than the European one. Imagine the cost if it was the other way around... Nevertheless, a valiant effort by the Finnish. I guess we eventually have to do Ukraine (and Iberia?) too, so hopefully the lessons learned can be applied there.

Why would it matter much? Either way, a new railway has to be built (others have pointed out dual-gauge is not workable).

If you have to go from a smaller gauge to a bigger one you most likely have to also expand corridors, buy new land, fix bridges and tunnels etc...

While a downshift if usually much esier since a smaller gauge simply fits inside the larger one so all bridges and tunnels are wide enough by definition.

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#249

Post by bluGill »

smallstepforman wrote: post #216
jabl wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why invest in forklifts, container infrastructure etc. if your military has a near-endless supply of uneducated conscripts you can order to shuffle around shells and other items? (Of course a more thorough analysis would probably come to the conclusion that better logistics is worth it. There's still an opportunity cost for those conscripts who could do something else instead, like dying in zerg rushes on the Ukraini…

“ endless supply of uneducated conscripts “ Now you’re just being silly.

Regardless of how much education they have - they are treated as uneducated.

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#250

Post by Gravityloss »

mimsee wrote: post #220
vesinisa wrote: post #14

Here's a much better article from the Finnish public broadcaster giving more context: https://yle.fi/a/74-20161606 My comments: The important thing to note that at this point it's just a political posturing and an announcement of intent. They haven't shown any concrete technical plan how this would actually be executed. > "Of course, we are very pragmatic and realistic, we cannot do this in five years. Planning will…

The costs were already studied in 2023 and were deemed cost ineffective[0]. The report contained three main strategies (VE1, VE2, VE3) with A & B plans for the first two. Costs would be in the range of 10-15+ billion with 15-20+ years allocated for construction time[1, p. 47]. [0]: https://valtioneuvosto.fi/en/-/1410829/report-shows-that-cha... [1]: https://api.hankeikkuna.fi/asiakirjat/697c1f25-332b-40ed-9d6...

I agree that a new line at least from Tornio to Oulu would make sense. There's also a lot of heavy industry in the Gulf of Bothnia, like Raahe and Kokkola.
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