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The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

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Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#241

Post by throwaway2037 »

jauntywundrkind wrote: post #200
armchairhacker wrote: post #40

Good code doesn’t just solve a problem, it solves it in a way that’s readable and modular. I think the problem-solving part of coding requires math skills, while the organization part requires writing skills. The organization part affects the problem-solving part, because if you write messy code (that you can’t reread once you forget or extend without rewriting) you’ll quickly get overwhelmed. Writing large math proo…

Its very rare imo that computational problems emerge fully formed & ready to be tackled like proofs. Usually even deciding what the problem is is in part an art, requires an act of narrativization, to shape and form concepts of origin, movement, and destination. A good problem solver has a very wide range of abstract ideas and concepts and concrete tools they can use to model and explain problem, solution, & destinat…

    > Its very rare imo that computational problems emerge fully formed & ready to be tackled like proofs.
In my generation, the perfect example is Python's Timsort. It is an modest improvement upon prior sorting algorithms, but it has come to dominate. And, frankly, in terms of computer science history, it was discovered very late. The paper was written in 1993, but the first major, high-impact open source implementation was not written until 2003. Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timsort

It has been reimplemented in a wide variety of languages today. I look forward to the next iteration: WolfgangSort or FatimaSort or XiaomiSort or whatever.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#242

Post by godelski »

bee_rider wrote: post #209
godelski wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how to interpret this comment, it could easily be read in multiple ways. (Depends on priors) Regardless, it's a shockingly common occurrence. I'd agree it's not the right way, but it is also a common way. That perspective might define those priors

Yeah, I was worried it might come off as sarcastic or something. Hopefully the original commenter doesn’t take it that way, or reads this follow up. Unfortunately, adding stuff like “honestly” often makes a comment look even more sarcastic. It is a real pain. But yes, I am expressing honest admiration—it was a bad move on the part of the teacher I think, which the poster seems to have overcome!

Well I appreciate clarifying! I originally took it as sarcastic but second guessed myself. I figured math is pedantic, so maybe being a little pedantic here could help haha.

I went through the same thing, it really isn't easy. But it is also why I don't blame others for not seeing it. It would be hypocritical to do so. I'm just not sure what's the best way to share, I'm open to ideas. Unfortunately we have to contend with priors that we see here, though I'm happy if my efforts even make one more person able to share in this beauty.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#243

Post by FilosofumRex »

You can make any subject "mathy", because there are relations, ratios, correlation and patterns in everything. My favorite example, is how Chomsky mathified linguistics, and made it esoteric, undecipherable, uncomputable and thereby linguists unemployable, even in research labs.

But as a matter of practice, teaching programming to engineers/scientists, even to mathematicians, is an order of magnitude easier than teaching math to CS folks. Simply quiz job candidates on fp arithmetics, and see how many fail miserably.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#244

Post by throwaway2037 »

reverendsteveii wrote: post #122
QuercusMax wrote: post #8

This totally makes sense to me. I've always been a very good / fast reader, which has been incredibly useful in my programming career. I had a good SAT math score (710) but got a perfect score (800) on the SAT verbal (in the late 90s). I remember when I first started working on my Master's project on wireless sensor networks, my advisor sat me down and said "I think I know a good project for you. I want you to print…

Also checking in as someone with strong language skills. When I was a kid in school a million years ago I was actually rather weak in math and crapped out around trig, but excelled in English, Spanish and C. Now I'm a senior web dev, and I still can't do much math beyond the basics required for everyday living (though 18 years in food service means I'm really quick at estimating percentages to within delta)

    > though 18 years in food service means I'm really quick at estimating percentages to within delta
This is an interesting comment! No trolling: Were you a bread or pastry baker? I am curious to hear more about this experience.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#245

Post by voidspark »

xigoi wrote: post #239
voidspark wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Coding IS math. Programming is an expression of logic, which is absolutely mathematics. But then we also have to think about naming variables and classes, structuring our code so that it is more readable by other developers, and so on. That's less about formal reasoning and more about communication. There is an engineering aspect to programming (prototyping, architecture, optimization, etc). It's a combination of m…

Do you think mathematicians don’t have to think about naming variables and structuring proofs?

Of course they do, but that part is not "mathematics". It is communication. If they use the English language to write the proof that doesn't mean English is also mathematics.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#246

Post by xigoi »

voidspark wrote: post #245
xigoi wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think mathematicians don’t have to think about naming variables and structuring proofs?

Of course they do, but that part is not "mathematics". It is communication. If they use the English language to write the proof that doesn't mean English is also mathematics.

Writing proofs is just as important to mathematics as writing code is to programming.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#247

Post by voidspark »

xigoi wrote: post #246
voidspark wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course they do, but that part is not "mathematics". It is communication. If they use the English language to write the proof that doesn't mean English is also mathematics.

Writing proofs is just as important to mathematics as writing code is to programming.

Yes it is important but that's not the point.

Structuring sentences and naming variables so that it is easier for other people to understand is less about formal mathematical reasoning, and more about communication.

You could name a variable x, y, or Banana, but it doesn't change the logic.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#248

Post by twodave »

jll29 wrote: post #78

There is no such thing as a "language brain" or a "math brain" unless you show experimentally that those bunch of neurons can be grouped into two non-overlapping regions dedicated to "language" and "mathematics". Mathematics itself is a human-made formal language that can be bootstrapped from definitions and axioms of logics and set theory, which have to be given in human language first. Experienced mathematicians re…

I wanted to say something like this, but in the opposite direction. I think perhaps more so there’s a difference between abstract and concrete thinking? But tests like the SAT in my experience (which is now 20 years out of date) treat the verbal section as more of a set of abstractions (analogies, for instance) and the math the same. I got almost equal marks in each (660 verbal/650 math) on my only try.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#249

Post by reverendsteveii »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #244
reverendsteveii wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also checking in as someone with strong language skills. When I was a kid in school a million years ago I was actually rather weak in math and crapped out around trig, but excelled in English, Spanish and C. Now I'm a senior web dev, and I still can't do much math beyond the basics required for everyday living (though 18 years in food service means I'm really quick at estimating percentages to within delta)

> though 18 years in food service means I'm really quick at estimating percentages to within delta This is an interesting comment! No trolling: Were you a bread or pastry baker? I am curious to hear more about this experience.

When I tell you that I was a server and bartender it should all become very clear. Though your guess isn't far off, it's a skill that's served me well since I've picked up breadmaking as a hobby

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#250

Post by FilosofumRex »

pier25 wrote: post #114
karmakaze wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other thing I don't like about this framing is the implicit false dichotomy. The best programmers I've met often have strong language and math skills. Poetry is the art of giving different names to the same thing. Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. (Henri Poincaré) It's basically being good at "naming things", in particular abstractions.

"naming things" is really about "recognizing things" and/or "understanding things". It much deeper than just language.

Yes, exactly, just watch how little babies recognize and communicate about hundreds of objects, emotions and situations before they're able to utter momma or dadda.
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