Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How University Students Use Claude

anthropic.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

241–250 of 601 posts

Re: How University Students Use Claude

#241

Post by gh0stcat »

kibwen wrote: post #57
bko wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When modern search became more available, a lot of people said there's no point of rote memorization as you can just do a Google search. That's more or less accepted today. Whenever we have a new technology there's a response "why do I need to learn X if I can always do Y", and more or less, it has proven true, although not immediately. For instance, I'm not too concerned about my child's ability to write very legibl…

The irreducible answer to "why should I" is that it makes you ever-more-increasingly reliant on a teetering tower of fragile and interdependent supply chains furnished by for-profit companies who are all too eager to rake you over the coals to fulfill basic cognitive functions. Like, Socrates may have been against writing because he thought it made your memory weak, but at least I, an individual, am perfectly capable…

Why do people keep parroting this reduction of Socrates' thoughts... I don't think it was just as simple as he thought writing was bad. And we already know that writing isn't everything, anyone who as done any study of a craft can tell you that reading and writing don't teach you the feel of the art form, but can also nonetheless aid in the study. It's not black and white, even though people like to make it out to be.

SOCRATES: You know, Phaedrus, writing shares a strange feature with painting. The offsprings of painting stand there as if they are alive, but if anyone asks them anything, they remain most solemnly silent. The same is true of written words. You’d think they were speaking as if they had some understanding, but if you question anything that has been said because you want to learn more, it continues to signify just that very same thing forever. When it has once been written down, every discourse roams about everywhere, reaching indiscriminately those with understanding no less than those who have no business with it, and it doesn’t know to whom it should speak and to whom it should not. And when it is faulted and attacked unfairly, it always needs its father’s support; alone, it can neither defend itself nor come to its own support.

PHAEDRUS: You are absolutely right about that, too.

SOCRATES: Now tell me, can we discern another kind of discourse, a legitimate brother of this one? Can we say how it comes about, and how it is by nature better and more capable?

PHAEDRUS: Which one is that? How do you think it comes about?

SOCRATES: It is a discourse that is written down, with knowledge, in the soul of the listener; it can defend itself, and it knows for whom it should speak and for whom it should remain silent.

[link](https://newlearningonline.com/literacies/chapter-1/socrates-...)

Re: How University Students Use Claude

#242

Post by kurthr »

palmotea wrote: post #201
hackyhacky wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMO it's quite different than using a calculator or any other tool. It can currently completely replace the human in the loop, whereas with other tools they are generally just a step in the process. The (as yet unproven) argument for the use of AIs is that using AI to solve simpler problems allows us humans to focus on the big picture, in the same way that letting a calculator solve arithmetic gives us flexibility…

> The (as yet unproven) argument for the use of AIs is that using AI to solve simpler problems allows us humans to focus on the big picture, in the same way that letting a calculator solve arithmetic gives us flexibility to understand the math behind the arithmetic. And I can tell you from experience that "letting a calculator solve arithmetic" (or more accurately, being dependent on a calculator to solve arithmetic)…

There are opposing trends in this. First, that like many tools the capable individual can be made much more effective (eg 2x->10x), which simply replaces some workers, and last occurred during the great depression. Second, that the tools become commoditized to the point where they are readily available from many suppliers at reasonable costs, which happened with calculators, word processors, and office automation. This along with a growing population, global trade, and rising demand led to the 80s-2k boom.

If the product is not commoditized, then capital will absorb all the increased labor efficiency, while labor (and consumption) are sacrificed on the altar of profits.

I suspect your assumption is more likely. Voltaire's critique of 'the best of all possible worlds' and man's place in creating meaning and happiness, provides more than one option.

Re: How University Students Use Claude

#243

Post by umbra07 »

DontchaKnowit wrote: post #203
jplusequalt wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Can do the work the next day to reinforce. Keeping the curriculum fixed, there's already barely enough time to cover everything. Cutting the amount of lectures in half to make room for in-class homework time does not fix this fundamental problem.

Just make lecture times longer.

students already don't pay attention in lecture:

* due to either learning/concentration issues * the fact that most lecturers are boring, dull, and unengaging * and oftentimes you can learn better from other sources

making lecture longer doesn't fix a single one of these issues. it just makes students learn even less.

Re: How University Students Use Claude

#244

Post by whatever1 »

dtnewman wrote: post #14

> A common question is: “how much are students using AI to cheat?” That’s hard to answer, especially as we don’t know the specific educational context where each of Claude’s responses is being used. I built a popular product that helps teachers with this problem. Yes, it's "hard to answer", but let's be honest... it's a very very widespread problem. I've talked to hundreds of teachers about this and it's a ubiquitous…

The counter argument is that now you can skip boilerplate code and focus on the overall design and the few points that brainpower is really needed.

The amount of visualizations that i have made after chat gpt was released has increased exponentially. I loath looking the documentation again and again to make a slightly non standard graph. Now all of the friction is gone! Graphs and visuals are everywhere in my code!

Re: How University Students Use Claude

#245

Post by walleeee »

walleeee wrote: post #207

> Students primarily use AI systems for creating (using information to learn something new) this is a smooth way to not say "cheat" in the first paragraph and to reframe creativity in a way that reflects positively on llm use. in fairness they then say > This raises questions about ensuring students don’t offload critical cognitive tasks to AI systems. and later they report > nearly half (~47%) of student-AI conversa…

I should say, disable you- the tone did not reflect that it can happen to anyone, and that it can not only be a wedge between people but also (and only by virtue of being) between personal trajectories, conditional on the way one uses it

Re: How University Students Use Claude

#246

Post by ViscountPenguin »

bko wrote: post #35
dtnewman wrote: post #14

> A common question is: “how much are students using AI to cheat?” That’s hard to answer, especially as we don’t know the specific educational context where each of Claude’s responses is being used. I built a popular product that helps teachers with this problem. Yes, it's "hard to answer", but let's be honest... it's a very very widespread problem. I've talked to hundreds of teachers about this and it's a ubiquitous…

When modern search became more available, a lot of people said there's no point of rote memorization as you can just do a Google search. That's more or less accepted today. Whenever we have a new technology there's a response "why do I need to learn X if I can always do Y", and more or less, it has proven true, although not immediately. For instance, I'm not too concerned about my child's ability to write very legibl…

I think the biggest issue with LLMs is basically just the fact that we're finally coming to the end of the long tail of human intellectual capability.

With previous technological advancements, humans had places to intellectually "flee", and in fact, previous advancements were often made for the express purpose of freeing up time for higher level pursuits. The invention of computers, for example, let mathematicians focus on much higher level skills (although even there an argument can be made that something has been lost with the general decrease in arithmetic abilities amoung modern mathematicians).

Large language models don't move humans further up the value chain, though. They kick us off of it.

I hear lots of people prosletizing wonderful futures where humans get to focus on "the problems that really matters", like social structures, or business objectives; but there's no fundamental reason that large language models can't replace those functionalities aswell. Unlike, say, a Casio, which would never be able to replace a social worker no matter how hard you tried.

Re: How University Students Use Claude

#247

Post by lisper »

elcritch wrote: post #225
crooked-v wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a quote that sounds great until, say, that self-built building by somebody who's neither engineer nor architect at best turns out to have some intractible design flaw and at worst collapses and kills people. It's also a quote from a character who's literally immortal and so has all the time in the world to learn things, which really undermines the premise.

I sort of view that list as table stakes for a well rounded capable person.. Well barring the invasion bit. Then again, being familiar with guns and or other forms of self defense is valuable. I think most farmers would be somewhat capable on most of that list. Equations for farm production. Programming tractor equipment. Setting bones. Giving and taking orders. Building houses and barns. Building a single story buil…

> pre-planned plans

Isn't that cheating? Shouldn't a properly self-reliant human be able to come up with the plans too?

Re: How University Students Use Claude

#249

Post by II2II »

bko wrote: post #35
dtnewman wrote: post #14

> A common question is: “how much are students using AI to cheat?” That’s hard to answer, especially as we don’t know the specific educational context where each of Claude’s responses is being used. I built a popular product that helps teachers with this problem. Yes, it's "hard to answer", but let's be honest... it's a very very widespread problem. I've talked to hundreds of teachers about this and it's a ubiquitous…

When modern search became more available, a lot of people said there's no point of rote memorization as you can just do a Google search. That's more or less accepted today. Whenever we have a new technology there's a response "why do I need to learn X if I can always do Y", and more or less, it has proven true, although not immediately. For instance, I'm not too concerned about my child's ability to write very legibl…

Perhaps that mode of thinking is wrong, even if it is accepted.

Take rote memorization. It is hard. It sucks in so many ways (just because you memorized something doesn't mean you can reason using that information). Yet memorization also provides the foundations for growth. At a basic level, how can you perform anything besides trivial queries if you don't know what you are searching for? How can you assess the validity of a source if you don't know the fundamentals? How can you avoid falling prey to propaganda if your only knowledge of a subject is what is in front of your face? None of that is to say that we should dismiss search and depend upon memorization. We need both.

I can't tell you what to say to your children about LLMs. For one thing, I don't know what is important to them. Yet it is important to remember that it isn't an either-or thing. LLMs are probably going to be essential to manage the profoundly unmanagable amount of information our world creates. Yet it is also important to remember that they are like the person who memorizes but lacks the ability to reason. They may be able to impress people with their fountain of facts, yet they will be unable to create a mark on the world since they will lack the ability to create anything unique.

Re: How University Students Use Claude

#250

Post by margalabargala »

DrillShopper wrote: post #157
ryandrake wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reply brings to mind the well-known Heinlein quote: A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallan…

This is a fantastic and underrated quote, despite all of the problems I have with Heinlein's fascism-glorifying work.

The quote is more reasonable in context.
Post reply on HN