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The Burnout Machine

unionize.fyi

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Re: The Burnout Machine

#241

Post by maxrmk »

sureglymop wrote: post #227
maxrmk wrote: post #208

I feel very fortunate to have worked other jobs before my first in tech. My last was hanging drywall and I will never forget how awful it was. I haven’t loved every part of every tech job I’ve worked, but I’ve always chosen to be there. I think the author is missing perspective on what the alternatives are like, and seems to have a lack of agency when they say things like: > How many of us have been forced to work on…

I think it makes sense when you look at it specifically with the "burnout" context in mind. The truth is, burnout can happen to anyone and it is often unclear whether there even is any real recovery. And it can even happen not just necessarily due to overwork but due to lack of a clear goal, death by a thousand papercuts, complete riddance of passion and interest for certain reasons. Sure it's nicer to work from your…

I can only speak for myself, but I would absolutely rather work burned out in tech than work in the trades again.

Drywalling was absolutely destroying my body, mind, and will to live.

Mobility is also a factor - I’ve had high stress tech jobs, but always had the option to quit and do something else if I felt close to burnout. That mobility doesn’t exist in many other jobs.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#242

Post by karaterobot »

bawolff wrote: post #199
stared wrote: post #100

Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" (I moved from academia over a decade ago, and I know the difference). This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels like it lacks perspective compared to virtually any other occupation. > We’re living in a world where billion dollar tech companies expect us to live and breathe code, demanding 80 hour weeks under the guise of "passion…

> Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" Is it though? People in software seem to be constantly talking about burnout/mental health issues. Like we need some explanation as to why software has such high pay, flexibility, limited education requirements, and yet not everyone in the world is doing it. High pay is usually a sign the job is compensating for being shitty in other ways.

> High pay is usually a sign the job is compensating for being shitty in other ways.

Or that it requires a set of skills that not everybody has, or that there is a competitive market where employees can select jobs based on pay. Those are two other reasons.

Indeed, I have to question the premise that high pay and shitty jobs go together. I can think of plenty of shitty, low-paid jobs.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#243

Post by nosefurhairdo »

ornornor wrote: post #186
nosefurhairdo wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you rather have layoffs at your company or have your company go out of business due to excessive labor costs? Should poor performers be immune from layoffs? When is a layoff justifiable? I'm free to leave my job at any time, so why shouldn't my employer be free to leave me?

Your employer doesn’t need you to buy food or pay for a roof over their head. You need your employer to stay fed and housed. There is a lot more downside for you than your employer, thus a massive power asymmetry. The only way to restore the balance is solidarity between workers and it’s usually a union (or a guild)

I don't need my employer for that either, because they're competing for my labor in a market with many other employers. It would be extremely costly to replace me because of the critical role I have on a highly profitable product. If anything, I'm the one with leverage, which I use every year to request more pay, fancier titles, and larger responsibilities.

Realistically, if I were laid off today I'd likely land a better paying job than this one. I choose to stay because I like my boss, my work, and my coworkers.

If circumstances changed such that it made sense to lay me off then I should be laid off. Why should anyone be obligated to pay my salary if I'm not offering commensurate value?

Re: The Burnout Machine

#244

Post by whoisthemachine »

rockemsockem wrote: post #92
whoisthemachine wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I quite like the idea of a trade union or accreditation board for SWE. The idea that we all work by a shared set of standards and terminology is appealing.

Sounds like a group that captures credentialing in the industry and then winds up using it to push their own flawed ideology on the entire industry. Because who else would actually be interested in being part of such a board. No thank you.

Civil, mechanical, electrical, and most other engineering disciplines have an accreditation board. I don't think they are pushing a "flawed" ideology in those disciplines. At least I don't see civil engineers constantly questioning why they would do load modeling for a bridge, like SWE's constantly question the value of unit testing.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABET

Re: The Burnout Machine

#245

Post by Henchman21 »

busterarm wrote: post #205
Henchman21 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in a data center with electricians, tower climbers, and systems and network engineers. ALL of us are blue collar. Including me, a systems/network engineer. I suggest you investigate this aspect of tech — there’s more to it than VS Code and JavaScript

Data Center and Operations people absolutely are blue collar in attitude and mindset, but you DC folks get to be isolated. If you're in a working environment that hires SDEs straight out of Tier 1 Universities, start talking about what it's like to grow up poor and you'll see quickly how everyone's eyes glaze over and you get treated like a pariah.

No worries on that front: I grew up dirt poor. Now I’m at a well known HFT firm. I know this quite well. I absolutely don’t belong.

Edit to add: I’m never allowed to forget that I don’t belong.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#246

Post by [deleted] »

echelon wrote: post #228
snozolli wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software engineers do basically no physical labor I developed debilitating tendinitis in both wrists right about the time I graduated college. A decade later, I developed a bulged disc in my neck that ended my career. There are very real risks to your body from sitting at a computer, deep in thought all day. There's a whole other swath of health issues, too, beside injury risks.

How does a union help you with your wrists? Why do you need help? I type every single day and I don't want your health problem placing limits on my job flexibility and career advancement. If our industry fills with unions, suddenly I won't be able to job hop to positions that look interesting to me. I'll have to consider things like seniority and tenure and a bunch of artificial rules. It'll be like going back to hig…

[deleted]

Re: The Burnout Machine

#247

Post by dubrocks »

stygiansonic wrote: post #5
terminalbraid wrote: post #3

Have there been successful general-software unions formed before? I see and hear this idea relatively frequently, but never past that. I sort of feel like most people don't stay at a place long enough to get cohesion or see enough they don't want to stay in the first place, good people chase better job offers (and congratulate themselves for doing it on their own), less good may stick around longer because they can't…

The article mentions this union, not sure if it meets your definition of success: https://www.alphabetworkersunion.org/our-wins

All that union managed to do is get various Google contractors fired for unionizing.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#248

Post by Apocryphon »

rockemsockem wrote: post #92
whoisthemachine wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I quite like the idea of a trade union or accreditation board for SWE. The idea that we all work by a shared set of standards and terminology is appealing.

Sounds like a group that captures credentialing in the industry and then winds up using it to push their own flawed ideology on the entire industry. Because who else would actually be interested in being part of such a board. No thank you.

It could be as simple as you only need to take the Leetcode exam once every ten years instead of every time you switch jobs.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#249

Post by 4ndrewl »

echelon wrote: post #236
4ndrewl wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you like to remove all of the benefits unions have given you?

Working nights and weekends got me a close to ten figure exit at a now publicly traded fintech. So yeah, I don't mind. Rather than retiring on that money, I'm back at it again, and I'm working even harder. I know what mediocrity and complacency is. I've worked surrounded by it, and I'll do anything to avoid it. I don't want that bullshit where coworkers strive to do the minimum and everybody plays hot potato to see w…

Cross-posted to LinkedIn?

Re: The Burnout Machine

#250

Post by d3ckard »

ActorNightly wrote: post #166
legitster wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels it lacks perspective with virtually any other occupations. On one hand, misery and happiness are relative. On the other hand, try telling a construction worker how hard our lives are sitting in chairs clicking buttons. My dad used to have to do things like hot tar roofing to pay the bills. So I still consider it a blessing to get to work in software. I thi…

>I think one thing that needs to be understood better is the concept of "burnout". I can explain it pretty well. You can classify pretty much all jobs into 2 categories - map lookups and reasoning. A map lookup job is something where you learn to associate a specific problem with a solution. Most jobs are like this. You go work in construction, its pretty much map lookup - supervisor tells you to go prep the concrete…

It’s exactly the opposite. Burnout happens when a person with high reasoning skills is not allowed to actually used them and forced into map lookup tasks (most commonly with a useless, here be dragons kind of map).
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