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Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

theintercept.com

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Re: Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

#241

Post by dragonwriter »

coolspot wrote: post #98
whatshisface wrote: post #63

Here's an interesting thought about how preferential surveillance can lead to repression even when it's public and not itself acted on: 1. Every demographic commits petty crimes and code violations at about the same rate (things like parking violations and music piracy). 2. However, people who are being watched will be caught more often. 3. The end result is that people in the "wrong" crowd on average are punished mo…

> Every demographic commits petty crimes and code violations at about the same rate Do you have data backing this claim? For example, homicides (that are not a subject for reporting bias) don’t follow a uniform distribution, so I would expect other crimes to also be non-uniform.

> homicides (that are not a subject for reporting bias)

There is very serious bias in which deaths are labelled homicides, and in who is held responsible for them. The idea that homicide stats are bias-free is weirdly pervasive, but absolutely without basis, on either the victimization or (even moreso, since the prior bias also impacts this on top of the direct bias applicable to it) perpetration side.

Re: Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

#242

Post by jeffbee »

rynohack wrote: post #229
bjoli wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the idea of no expectation of privacy in public places crashes with the ever increasing capabilities of law enforcement and companies to register your activities and views. What is now registered with digital dragnets that can be queried at any time is what would require actual man-hours 50 years ago for just following one person.

That's basically the approach taken in Carpenter v. United States. The Supreme Court said, sure, the police could track people in public with dozens of cars and thousands of man hours, but using CLSI data means it can be done with a few mouse clicks. You can't apply the "reasonable expectation of privacy" standard when you get into these new electronic forms of surveillance. It's become far too cheap and easy to surv…

I cannot endorse this overbroad definition of "privacy" and in fact I can't see the logic in it at all. It is true that in the past the cops could not automatically hoover up your posts, but is also true that in the past no individual person could reach millions/billions of other individuals instantly with short messages and videos. The increase in scope of police collection of public communications is proportional to the increase in reach of those communications platforms. It is all well-balanced.

Re: Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

#243

Post by mmooss »

bawolff wrote: post #234
mmooss wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't claim otherwise and it's irrelevant to my point, regardless. The point is that you can't exclude technology from the issue - surveillance with modern tech and with pre-industrial tech are very different things. Now you can do almost complete surveillance of the population (just track phones and you know everywhere everyone goes). (Also, where and when specifically are you talking about? The 1950s US? State i…

I'm just saying these issues aren't new. One of the reasons the us had limited domestic intel services back in the day is that they were scared of this sort of thing. As an example the surveilence practised by soviets or east germany was much more invasive despite not having phones.

> I'm just saying these issues aren't new.

I'm saying they are new, because the technology is different - like saying 'transportation isn't new' when comparing horses and airplanes. The technology is inseparable from the issue.

> One of the reasons the us had limited domestic intel services back in the day is that they were scared of this sort of thing.

Do you have evidence of that? Many people are scared of it now, and that does limit it to some degree, but not a lot.

> As an example the surveilence practised by soviets or east germany was much more invasive despite not having phones.

They were enabled by technology far more advanced than the colonial era. They did have phones and they tapped them, tapped rooms, etc., and used communication tech to centralize and disseminate the information, as well as using mass communication to implement propaganda.

Re: Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

#244

Post by Wumpnot »

dragonwriter wrote: post #241
coolspot wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every demographic commits petty crimes and code violations at about the same rate Do you have data backing this claim? For example, homicides (that are not a subject for reporting bias) don’t follow a uniform distribution, so I would expect other crimes to also be non-uniform.

> homicides (that are not a subject for reporting bias) There is very serious bias in which deaths are labelled homicides, and in who is held responsible for them. The idea that homicide stats are bias-free is weirdly pervasive, but absolutely without basis, on either the victimization or (even moreso, since the prior bias also impacts this on top of the direct bias applicable to it) perpetration side.

You will need to provide evidence if you want anyone to believe that

Re: Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

#245

Post by Wumpnot »

amarcheschi wrote: post #92
whatshisface wrote: post #63

Here's an interesting thought about how preferential surveillance can lead to repression even when it's public and not itself acted on: 1. Every demographic commits petty crimes and code violations at about the same rate (things like parking violations and music piracy). 2. However, people who are being watched will be caught more often. 3. The end result is that people in the "wrong" crowd on average are punished mo…

Just today I was preparing some slides for a course that makes the student participate and show some topics we're interested in regarding social and ethical issues in compsci I googled a bit and I found a hn comment that talked about an article which explains what you say Basically, they estimate drug use in the population, and they draw a map, and black and white people more or less have the same habits in drugs use…

Also arrests are going to be targeted at people selling more so than using, so it isn't the correct metric to begin with.

Re: Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

#246

Post by no_exit »

dotancohen wrote: post #227
octopoc wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude. Israel is committing genocide . Your persecution complex is making you blind. Put yourself in your neighbor’s shoes, please. Do this not just to be a descent human being—do this for the sake of your own survival. What will happen when Israel has made every nation hate it more than ever, and the US finally cuts the purse strings?

Israel is not committing genocide. Not by any reputable definition of genocide. Israel is waging war against an enemy who in fact clearly states their intention to genocide the Jews. You are correct to be angry about the amount of people dying in this war. But you should direct your anger to those responsible for both starting the war and for directly endangering those people.

> Bogey Ya'alon doesn't want the IDF to kill babies and women in Gaza. What's wrong with him? Shame on you, Boogie, there's a country here.

https://x.com/AyalaHasson/status/1901001799412129830

Re: Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

#247

Post by shadowgovt »

mmooss wrote: post #183
shadowgovt wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I don't follow. If you remove the tech from dropping of atomic bombs, you still have firebombs, gas attacks, and myriad other weapons that may or may not be considered either war crimes or simply too destructive to allow. You can still extrapolate and / or build analogies from the older models to the new one. Why can't we remove the tech in this context? Is the issue that the tech allows surveillance of public…

> you still have firebombs, gas attacks, and myriad other weapons All are post colonial-era technology. By analogy to your argument, if we can only address surveillance as if colonial-era technology was used, then we can only address military actions that way. What if someone set off a colonial-era explosive? Not a big deal, right?

Are we talking law or morality?

I think I see what you mean if we're talking morality. If we're talking law, this is exactly the rabbit-hole people end up going down trying to justify or un-justify the Second Amendment in an era where the weapon is a 60-to-1 force multiplier for body count, not a 1.5-to-1 (in that if two men approach you with a knife, and you have a colonial rifle, you can probably reliably shoot one of them and then you're on equal footing with the other).

The law has all kinds of pockets where they wrote it when people were on horseback... But it still applies.

Re: Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

#248

Post by tptacek »

CalChris wrote: post #216
tptacek wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're just wrong. There's a whole line of cases about this. Walkers and strollers and wanderers may be going to or coming from a burglary. Loafers or loiterers may be "casing" a place for a holdup. Letting one's wife support him is an intra-family matter, and normally of no concern to the police. Yet it may, of course, be the setting for numerous crimes. The difficulty is that these activities are historically part…

A legal cite, please. Yes, I know about the loitering case, Chicago v. Morales ; it was struck down on vagueness. But again, why are the police in this case monitoring a constitutionally protected activity?

That wasn't a cite to Chicago v Morales! I'm not going to play Calvinball on this.

Re: Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

#249

Post by mmooss »

shadowgovt wrote: post #247
mmooss wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you still have firebombs, gas attacks, and myriad other weapons All are post colonial-era technology. By analogy to your argument, if we can only address surveillance as if colonial-era technology was used, then we can only address military actions that way. What if someone set off a colonial-era explosive? Not a big deal, right?

Are we talking law or morality? I think I see what you mean if we're talking morality. If we're talking law, this is exactly the rabbit-hole people end up going down trying to justify or un-justify the Second Amendment in an era where the weapon is a 60-to-1 force multiplier for body count, not a 1.5-to-1 (in that if two men approach you with a knife, and you have a colonial rifle, you can probably reliably shoot one…

> The law has all kinds of pockets where they wrote it when people were on horseback... But it still applies.

That's not how it works. It can't be ignored, but even words change meaning over years (and are often imprecise to begin with). The Supreme Court changes intepretations - a lot, recently.

Re: Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

#250

Post by bawolff »

diegolas wrote: post #225
bawolff wrote: post #193

Am i weird in that this feels kind of normal (im not american)? Protests should be protected, but i normally assume protestors get permits, and a reasonable police presence is around. Not to intimidate anyone, but just to make sure nobody gets too rowdy, keep protestors and counter-protestors away from each other (to prevent violence), provide aid if anyone gets hurt (big masses of people is always a trample risk). O…

> but i normally assume protestors get permits can't help but find this hilarious (also not american either)

That is kind of the central idea of democracy.

Instead of revolution and all its upheavel & damage, you get a mini controlled revolution every 4 years.

Instead of unmitigated riots, you get demonstrations but with some crowd control & beurocracy to prevent injuries (and well chaos, riots and looting).

Democracy is kind of a deal - you get to have the popular discontent but without the extreme forms that end up damaging bystanders.

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