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HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

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Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#241

Post by llm_nerd »

troupo wrote: post #229
llm_nerd wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And yet it's somehow being pushed as a be-all solve-all replacement But it isn't a be-all solve-all replacement. The whole point of HTTP/3 is that you can still use HTTP/2 all you want in your build-outs, and it uses as appropriate. If large file, many packet, high speed sustained performance is your thing and you've got problems with HTTP/3, deploy it on an HTTP/2 server. Go nuts. Positively nothing will go awry. E…

> If large file, many packet, high speed sustained performance is your thing and you've got problems with HTTP/3, deploy it on an HTTP/2 server. Ah yes. Basically back to some links I discussed. Oh, it's amazing but you have to be careful what you deploy, and when, and you have to switch between HTTP/2 and HTTP/3 for some unspecified criteria which may or may not be better in one or another while the article we're in…

>That is what Google markets it as, for sure.

Can you point me to this Google "marketing"?

Google doesn't particularly care if you use HTTP/3. They don't even build it into the tools they build like Go or Dart, at least not in a timely manner. There was a passing bit of technical notes for RFCs and as they added it in Chromium, but otherwise they've been remarkably silent about it.

Yet they moved trillions of web requests to HTTP/3. Maybe they really don't know what they're doing. Cloudflare also clearly hasn't the slightest, right? Fools!

>while the article we're in comments to decries

HTTP/3 is complex to implement. Very complex. It's pretty simple to understand why it hasn't seen wide implementation in every random tool. And for many people HTTP/2 is fine, especially as you're probably just going to drop Cloudflare (which has HTTP/3) with caching in front of it anyways.

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#242

Post by [deleted] »

jayd16 wrote: post #211
shepherdjerred wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would I use C# over any other language though?

C# has a strong high level feature set and lower level tools to keep performance up. The language itself is well designed and consistent. Its able to mix functional and OO features without being dogmatic, leading to better dev-x over all. ASP is actually very good these days and feels cleaner than Spring Boot. There's less choice but the available choices are good. It has arguably the best gRPC implementation. It's j…

[deleted]

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#243

Post by johnisgood »

neonsunset wrote: post #239
johnisgood wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parent comment was edited, it no longer seems to include "Rust", difficult to follow. :P

I edited it because it's not just my own experience of dealing with this. On twitter, I follow a couple Japanese developers from mainly gamedev scene and even they complain they started hearing more about "but it only works on windows" and "it's not open-source". Don't you find it strange that it should be the other way around the more years pass since .NET went OSS? The link itself is also quite outdated and mainly…

I assumed .NET is Windows-only and proprietary, too, but it has to do with me not having done enough research, so if it is not the case anymore, the blame is on me.

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#244

Post by TeMPOraL »

waynesonfire wrote: post #197
celsoazevedo wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost every optimization is irrelevant if we apply the same reasoning to everything. Add all savings together and it does make a difference to real people using the web in the real world.

Google operates at such a scale that tiny increases of performances allows them to support a team of engineers and saves money on the bottom line. For example, Google hires 10 engineers, they deploy HTTP/3, it saves 0.5% cpu usage, Google saves a million dollars and covers the salary of the said 10 engineers. For the vast majority of society, the savings don't matter. Perhaps even deploying it is a net-negative with…

It absolutely matters. Machines are orders of magnitude faster than they were 20 years ago; most software isn't doing much more than software did 20 years ago. And no, collaborative editing isn't be-all, end-all, nor does it explain where all that performance is lost.

Many optimizations have bad ROI because users' lives are an externality for the industry. It's Good and Professional to save some people-weeks in development, at the cost of burning people-centuries of your users' life in aggregate. And like with pollution, you usually can't pin the problem on anyone, as it's just a sum of great many parties each doing tiny damage.

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#245

Post by cogman10 »

kstrauser wrote: post #214
djha-skin wrote: post #209

> Really it's hard to point to any popular open-source tools that fully support HTTP/3: rollout has barely even started. > This seems contradictory. What's going on? IT administrators and DevOps engineers such as myself typically terminate HTTP/3 connections at the load balancer, terminate SSL, then pass back HTTP 1.1 (_maybe_ 2 if the service is GRPC or GraphQL) to the backing service. This is way easier to administ…

I'm not an expert on HTTP/3, but vehemently disagree about IPv6. It removes tons of overhead and cruft, making it delightful for datacenter work. That, and basically guaranteeing you don't have to deal with the company you just acquired having deployed their accounts with the same 10/16 subnet your own company uses.

The problem I keep running into is that IPv6 support in common infrastructure is somewhat lacking.

It's always a headache to learn that some container orchestration system doesn't support IPv6. Or an http client. Or a DNS resolver. Or whatever.

Not to mention the supreme annoyance I have that, to this day, my ISP still does not have IPv6 addressing available.

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#246

Post by mleo »

thayne wrote: post #231
shermantanktop wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

.NET suffers from the long lasting reputational taint of Microsoft. It was seen as the sworn enemy of open source and Linux, and for good reason. Today’s MS is not what it was back then. But long memories are not a bad thing, really. If .NET suffers a bit from some unfair perception, perhaps that can remind MS and others what happens when you take an aggressively adversarial approach.

More than just that it came from MS. For a long time, .NET was completely proprietary, and only ran on Windows. Now it is open source and cross platform, but it is still fighting the momentum of being seen as Windows-only.

I haven’t developed with .NET in a dozen years, let alone since it went cross platform, but I at least know it is capable of being cross platform. It amazes me how many developers I speak to that still assume .NET is Windows only.

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#247

Post by fweimer »

A lot of programming interfaces do not even keep alive HTTP/1.1 connections across requests because they do not have means to manage the hidden state. Transparent and meaningful upgrades to HTTP/3 on the library side only appear difficult.

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#249

Post by TheRealPomax »

celsoazevedo wrote: post #189
TheRealPomax wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a bizarre thing to say: not every optimization is imperceptable by humans (jpg, gzip, brotli, JS and CSS payload bundling and minification, etc. etc.) and not all sums of optimizations add up to "something significant in terms of human perception". HTTP/3 is a good optimization, and you can't sell it based on "it improves things for humans" because it doesn't. It improves things for machines, and given that esse…

For a long time all my internet connections were bad (slow, unstable or both). Compressing HTML/CSS/JS, avoiding JS unless absolutely needed, being careful with image sizes and formats, etc, helped a lot... so I guess this makes me biased. Today I have fibre at home, but mobile networks are still patchy. I'm talking sub 1Mbps and high ping/jitter sometimes. So you can see why I think an "irrelevant" optimisation that…

That was my point: 300ms sounds like a lot until, like me too, you're on a slow connection and those 300ms on the entire 10 second page load are utterly irrelevant. You were already expecting a several second load time, that 300ms is not something that even registers: the HTTP negotiation on a modern page is _not_ what you're noticing on a slow connection. You're noticing literally everything else taking forever instead.

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#250

Post by tristor »

HTTP/3 adoption will explode as soon as its provided in `libcurl` with default compile options when combined with OpenSSL and not a moment before. As soon as this happens there will be a bunch of clients that speak HTTP/3 if available, and then there will be effort to build it into servers.

Right now there's no critical mass, and the most commonly used most-reference implementation of an HTTP client doesn't support HTTP/3 in any standardized way.

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