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Should managers still code?

theengineeringmanager.substack.com

241–250 of 319 posts

Re: Should managers still code?

#241
Yes, because you need to have a feel for the quality and direction of the systems your organisation is building and maintaining, independently of the people you have dominance over. Because that hierarchical relation itself will make it hard for them to accurately communicate to you how it's going and the more time you make them spend explaining things to you instead of cooperating with each other, the worse for the team that actually gets stuff done.

You should also keep using programming and automation to perform managerial tasks and not degenerate into constantly droning away in some mind-numbing office software suite.

Re: Should managers still code?

#242

I cant work for someone who doesn't understand what I do. An unused sword rusts in its sheathe. I remember working for a gent years ago, who was stressed out that my output was so low. He declared "I started this business in my living room let me show you I can do any job in this building" He came to my workspace, where I had 20 servers stacked on my workbench. He looked at them. Attached a single power cord. And the…

If your boss can do your job, one of you is redundant. Managers of engineers should be the interface to the business and other units within the organization. That's a big enough job without requiring coding skills on top of it.

If your boss can do your job, he can understand what you're doing and correctly determine how you perform. One of you is only redundant if the manager doesn't have his time filled with other things.

An engineering manager actually reads the output of the engineers and participates in having it applied to realise bigger projects. He makes higher level decisions about the engineering projects.

Re: Should managers still code?

#243

Reading these arguments are funny to me. By now there should be decades worth of research on this topic, all we seem to do is give anecdote after anecdote with no conclusion. Either no is doing this research or no one trusts the conclusions. Other topics like this are WFH or RTO, 4 day WW or 6 day WW. We as a profession seem to never come to a consensus.

What profession does? You realize there are vested interests, competing interests and a varying degree of people optimizing for their individual careers, right?

Re: Should managers still code?

#244
From a practical point of view, I think anyone who has written any substantial amount of code is aware of the cost of context switching. Now picture a diary where you have 5 to 10 meetings a day with 30min free slots in between, and staying on top of emails on top of that. How much thoughtful coding do you expect to achieve?

I think managers gain at doing some coding to stay in touch, and certainly home projects are very useful. But it is impractical to expect anyone who runs a large team to be productive in term of writing code.

Re: Should managers still code?

#246
A lot of this really depends on the scale and scope of the codebase(s) that the manager is accountable for. Staying on top of a service with a few very clear usecases is very different than staying on top of several services, jobs, and tools across multiple repositories.

The ideal is to try and structure code in such a way that it "screams" about what is going on, but realizing that ideal in some contexts is extremely difficult.

Re: Should managers still code?

#248

I cant work for someone who doesn't understand what I do. An unused sword rusts in its sheathe. I remember working for a gent years ago, who was stressed out that my output was so low. He declared "I started this business in my living room let me show you I can do any job in this building" He came to my workspace, where I had 20 servers stacked on my workbench. He looked at them. Attached a single power cord. And the…

If your boss can do your job, one of you is redundant. Managers of engineers should be the interface to the business and other units within the organization. That's a big enough job without requiring coding skills on top of it.

Uh no? There is another limiting factor which is time. And there's is yet another which is having a substitute in case you're sick or whatever.

Re: Should managers still code?

#249
post #238
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> waste their nights and weekends doing a variation of your job Why is that a waste? I'm an EM and code both at work and on nights/weekends. During the work day, I spend most of my time helping other people directly (code review, talking through designs, 1:1s, xfn collab, etc.) To build larger things, I do them nights and weekends. It's not a waste. I'm better as an EM because of it. And being a better EM gets me mor…

You just don't know how to manage your time yet. This is every manager's first few months. The totality of your work should be done at work, or you're actually pretty bad at your job, efficiency wise at least. You'll tell yourself you're doing more than others, but eh. Anyway, people told me that and I scoffed as well, so it's useless to type this, it's the type of thing you adapt after going through it.

We actually can't judge this without really looking at outcomes.

If the parent leans on the hard earned skills to make better decisions that improves outcomes for their team and by extension the org, then it's entirely possible it makes them a better manager.

Where it gets complicated is questions non-related to this:

- Who and how is anyone measuring outcomes? This is often very difficult in abstract.

- Is the org actually setup to allow these teams to flourish? Will the measurement be fair, or is there effectively internal sabotage?

- What's the reward for being better? Would the parents life actually be materially better for making the effort?

Personally, I agree with the parent. On average, having good ICs making your IC decisions lead to better outcomes. Where there's grey areas is there's more than 1 way to structure this. Player managers are definitely valid. Better than non-technical managers with good soft skills making poor engineering decisions over and over.

Where I'd disagree is the continuous effort. Once you've reached a certain level, a lot of what happens below syntax. Occasionally you end up managing something you don't understand with contention in the team.

At this point, you either invest or defer. The problem with the latter, in my experience, is very few devs have experience with commercials, so most of the arguments are based on laziness, interests, or purism, rather than outcomes.

For the record, whilst there's managers we like working for, if they're not able to extract reward for business outcome for the few that chase that, are they actually any good?

Re: Should managers still code?

#250

I cant work for someone who doesn't understand what I do. An unused sword rusts in its sheathe. I remember working for a gent years ago, who was stressed out that my output was so low. He declared "I started this business in my living room let me show you I can do any job in this building" He came to my workspace, where I had 20 servers stacked on my workbench. He looked at them. Attached a single power cord. And the…

I guess I don't get what's objectionable about working for someone who doesn't understand how you do what you do. Isn't what matters being appreciated? I certainly can't work for someone who doesn't value what I do, but I can care less whether they actually understand how I do it.

> Isn't what matters being appreciated?

And if they have no clue what the job is about they will inevitably appreciate/promote/give raises to people who talk the most random jargon in meetings rather than to people who actually work.

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