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Antiqua et Nova: Note on the relationship between AI and human intelligence

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241–250 of 513 posts

Re: Antiqua et Nova: Note on the relationship between AI and human intelligence

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is deep wisdom in the Bible that absolutely can provide us clear moral guidance in our modern problems Of course there is. It’s a text that has survived two millennia. Almost anything that old is interesting due to selection effect. The problem is not only has the book survived, but so have several political institutions and ways of thinking around it. Not from the time of Jesus. But from the centuries and mi…

I agree on most of that. A few comments: > Pick a social issue fifty years ago, take most institutional church’s positions, and they’re pretty consistently wrong. (There are notable exceptions, of course.) According to what definition of wrong? What is decided by popular vote? Although democracy in America has a Christian foundation (congregational churches), Christians pretty much defer right/wrong to the biblical t…

> According to what definition of wrong? What is decided by popular vote?

According to what most people would consider wrong today. Supporting Mussolini. Interracial marriage. The right for gay people to exist.

(This is partly due to religion and the right having been allies in our modern history. So whenever there is a cultural clash where churches must take a position, it's usually with the conservative right. And the last century has been one where, on social issues, the conservative right has been wrong more than correct.)

> you know what Christians would say to this one... It's a lot of pain before it gets good

There is a lot of pain being caused by Christian institutions today. It’s why religiosity, particularly Christianity in America, is on a multigenerational slide [1]. (It could reverse. Young men, particularly on the far right, appear to be reversing course. And Christianity has thrived for millenia because it's particularly adaptable.)

We can learn from holy books and practice a faith without giving its institutions in the mortal realm power. Or at least, not putting them above reproach.

[1] https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/09/13/how-u-s-reli...

Re: Antiqua et Nova: Note on the relationship between AI and human intelligence

#242
post #19

I enjoyed this bit - great use of the word "idolatry": ---- 104. Technology offers remarkable tools to oversee and develop the world's resources. However, in some cases, humanity is increasingly ceding control of these resources to machines. Within some circles of scientists and futurists, there is optimism about the potential of artificial general intelligence (AGI), a hypothetical form of AI that would match or sur…

> However, it is not AI that is ultimately deified and worshipped, but humanity itself---which, in this way, becomes enslaved to its own work. Doesn't that describe all religion? I mean, you're telling me that the infinite creator of the universe cares about the prayers, the suffering, the aspirations, and the sexual habits of a bunch of finite beings? The hubris! It seems obvious to me that the gods of all religions…

> I mean, you're telling me that the infinite creator of the universe cares about the prayers, the suffering, the aspirations, and the sexual habits of a bunch of finite beings?

Do you care about the functioning of every cell in your body? Ask any cancer patient if they do.

Re: Antiqua et Nova: Note on the relationship between AI and human intelligence

#243

> the entire human person is simultaneously both material and spiritual... the human person transcends the material world through the soul... the human spirit does not exercise its normal mode of knowledge without the body I have a hard time wrapping my head around exactly what it is that Christians believe about immortality. So the soul lives on forever, but without the reasoning and intellectual capabilities grante…

Not a Christian or follower of any organized religion but IMHO: Humanity (capital-H) is immortal; individual humans are not. Individuals are like the memory cells keeping the accumulated body of knowledge alive, and that body of knowledge is “God” or whatever, simultaneously human and spirit, an entire other world of Idea hosted in a distributed form in our physical reality.

It's like a DRAM refresh where new individuals are born, some bit of the accumulated knowledge gets passed on to them, the old individuals die off, but the knowledge is Eternal. In this sense, human love and reproduction literally makes more room for more Knowledge, and that's why the people who want to rule physical reality as a sort of false-god constantly try to convince us to have fewer humans, The Population Bomb, Maintain Humanity Under 500000000, etc.

Re: Antiqua et Nova: Note on the relationship between AI and human intelligence

#244
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sensory input refers to the information received by the body's senses, like sight, hearing, touch, taste, and smell, through sensory organs like the eyes, ears, skin, tongue, and nose, which is then transmitted to the brain as electrical signals for processing and interpretation; essentially, it's anything you perceive using your senses. Even if we are talking about the best cameras in the world, they pale in compa…

So how much less of a human was Helen Keller?

I don't remember stating that having 5 senses were necessary to be human. This reads like a very uncharitable dismissal of what's really a very interesting topic.

Helen Keller, despite lacking sight and hearing, was still able to perceive the world through sensory input, including taste, touch, and smell - and although she could not hear, she could still feel warmth and the touch of another human, and experienced emotions. (She may not be the best example for your argument, either, as she was born with sight and hearing.)

A better question might be, how much less of a human is a human brain organoid? https://www.michiganmedicine.org/health-lab/artificially-gro...

Re: Antiqua et Nova: Note on the relationship between AI and human intelligence

#245
post #48

I liked the simple observation in point 35: 'as Pope Francis observes, “the very use of the word ‘intelligence’” in connection with AI “can prove misleading”[69] and risks overlooking what is most precious in the human person.' I was texting my buddy that the proper acronym could be ABNECUI (Almost, But Not Entirely, Completely Unlike Intelligence, to rip something from Douglas Adams). At a more profound level, I rea…

> it always feels paradoxical when leaders wax poetic about the mystery of God and then say 'so here is what God thinks you should do.' How could they know? Perhaps we were told it: > "Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?" He [Jesus] said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the greatest and first commandment. And a…

> Which is taken from the Torah.

Proceeding to link to Wikipedia while claiming the Vatican took their opinions from the Torah especially since their references are an actual bibliography is very reductive.

Re: Antiqua et Nova: Note on the relationship between AI and human intelligence

#246

> the entire human person is simultaneously both material and spiritual... the human person transcends the material world through the soul... the human spirit does not exercise its normal mode of knowledge without the body I have a hard time wrapping my head around exactly what it is that Christians believe about immortality. So the soul lives on forever, but without the reasoning and intellectual capabilities grante…

It's been around 2000 years with many divisions and sects so I don't think you can give a single definition. Early Christians didn't agree on the divinity of Jesus. Hell wasn't christian doctrine until 400CE. Some Christians believe heaven is on earth itself and you'll be resurrected on earth, in your original body, when that times comes.

Re: Antiqua et Nova: Note on the relationship between AI and human intelligence

#247

> the entire human person is simultaneously both material and spiritual... the human person transcends the material world through the soul... the human spirit does not exercise its normal mode of knowledge without the body I have a hard time wrapping my head around exactly what it is that Christians believe about immortality. So the soul lives on forever, but without the reasoning and intellectual capabilities grante…

The immortality of the soul is a Hellenistic belief that influenced Christianity.

Re: Antiqua et Nova: Note on the relationship between AI and human intelligence

#248
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that a belief in god(s) makes you less prepared for a world with AI. In Buddhism the attitude is more sane: gods are just being that can be wrong too and ultimately suffer and cause suffering, the same as the rest of us. They might just be more strongly self-deluded (wink wink the pope wink wink)

It often feels to me that HN's view of Buddhism is "whatever bits of philosophy I happen to agree with". It's true that throughout history, there have been enough different expressions of Buddhism, practiced by at least a few people, that it's possible to say a lot of things 'are Buddhism', but it feels dishonest to me to rely on that in comparative analysis with a much more doctrinally stable religion. The differenc…

Perhaps the difference is the Buddhists try to teach you how to experience the bliss of that discovery in this life instead of just crossing your fingers for jam tomorrow.

Re: Antiqua et Nova: Note on the relationship between AI and human intelligence

#249
Section headings: Embodiment — Relationality — Relationship with the truth — Stewardship of the world.

All of these topics (intentionally: §30) relate to weak points of the current "AI boom" in LLMs. Human-type intelligence — what we might better call "sentience" or "humanity" — critically depends on the human being's embodiment in the physical world and his relation to that world, including the recognition of other beings like oneself. Another point is a sense of responsibility toward the well-being of the physical world; that recognition of a sense of duty (or any non-material "higher truth" traditionally received by intuition or intellect rather than by reasoning) is what the writer turns out to mean by "Relationship with the truth." (LLMs obviously have no relationship even with mundane truth — historical accuracy, a sense of physical plausibility — but what the Vatican writers mean is the human mind's relationship to higher truths than mere physical data.)

§26: True humanity exercises "the full scope of one’s being: spiritual, cognitive, embodied, and relational." Current popular notions of "AI" deal only with the second of these, with the occasional experimental gesture toward the third.

§28–29: "Human intelligence possesses an essential contemplative dimension, an unselfish openness to the True, the Good, and the Beautiful, beyond any utilitarian purpose." Paul Claudel (1956): "Intelligence is nothing without delight." Even Turing (1950) agrees: "[Some claim that no machine will ever] be kind, resourceful, beautiful, friendly [...] enjoy strawberries and cream [...] The inability to enjoy strawberries and cream may have struck the reader as frivolous. Possibly a machine might be made to enjoy this delicious dish, but any attempt to make one do so would be idiotic. What is important about this disability is that it contributes to some of the other disabilities." Where Turing disagrees is that he thinks that "possibly" some machine, in some perhaps-distant future, might truly experience enjoyment or delight. (Note: I don't know what Turing meant by "idiotic." Is he saying that a machine might someday experience enjoyment, but only a fool would think he could ever engineer such a machine — enjoyment would have to arise "emergently," so to speak?)

Turing (1950) was responding to Jefferson (1949)'s oration "The Mind of Mechanical Man,"[1] which I personally find much more coherent and more pleasant to read. (Turing's essay makes a more important contribution to the field, i.e., the Imitation Game; but I think Jefferson was more closely correct and exhibits better persuasive skill.) Jefferson veers slightly from his main thrusts to include the following two remarks. I think the first sentence remains apropos to the current age (also cf. §60, 88, 94), and the second obviously relates to the Vatican's interests as well:

> Since no thinking man can be unaware of his fellows and of the political scene he will find that the concept of thinking like machines lends itself to certain political dogmas inimical to man's happiness. Furthermore, it erodes religious beliefs that have been mainstays of social conduct and have brought happiness and serenity of mind to many.

§39: "Between a machine and a human being, only the latter is truly a moral agent — a subject of moral responsibility who exercises freedom in his or her decisions and accepts their consequences." Or as IBM (1979) put it: "A computer can never be held accountable; therefore a computer must never make a management decision." Or as Nietzsche (1887) put it: "To breed an animal with the prerogative to promise – is that not precisely the paradoxical task which nature has set herself with regard to humankind?"[2] §43–45 expand on this guidance in more concrete terms.

§112: Bernanos (1944) warns, "The danger is not in the multiplication of machines, but in the ever-increasing number of men accustomed from their childhood to desire only what machines can give." Or as Juvenal (circa AD 100) put it: "The mob curtails its desires, and reveals its anxiety for two things only: bread and circuses."[3]

[1] - https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2050428/

[2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Genealogy_of_Morality

[3] - https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/JuvenalSatir...

Re: Antiqua et Nova: Note on the relationship between AI and human intelligence

#250
I find the idealized religious view of humans as evidence-free and faith based as the views of a god.

The latter makes perfect sense, (from their standpoint) god is revealed by revelation and faith. And there is sense in the idea of god, creator of all, as an actual perfect ideal, perfectly elemental.

But the former always strikes me as strange.

Reading the arguments contrasting human vs. AI rationality and moral reasoning, I was struck by how much closer humans are to (even current) AI's incomplete abilities, than the idea of the rational moral human. Which we not only fail at, but that seems to be a category error to me.

Most people's conception of morality has more of a personal-cultural shopping list aspect to it, and little reasoning - except as it aids enthusiastic upholding of their existing shopping list.

Ethics should be as much of an advancing field as anything else. The fundemental problem couldn't be clearer: What are the positive sum behaviors that we can all learn, share and benefit from?

And what are the ethical systems we can build into society that make positive sum actions more reliable, efficient and effective?

It is a problem highly amenable to math, engineering, and experiment, despite having humans for units.

Example: Capitalism is rightly recognized as having elements of ethical return in its makeup. Freedom of individual choice, healthy competition bringing out the best to serve us all, etc. But point out an unaddressed dysfunction and people either lose their minds or lose interest.

But attention to non-controversial personal and systems ethical standards have, and could again and again, increase our economic returns, political stability, improve our physical and mental health and happiness. Greed should get behind ethics!

Yet politics and economics operate seemingly isolated from ethics. Morality, at best, is played as a cynical zero/negative-sum game mining and amplifying controversies.

Despite ethics' absolutely huge political and economic value multipliers. A lot of obviously destructive competition, is glorified, excused and protected in the name of constructive competition. To the point people accept optimization of the worst of it as natural. We complain about it, but have no current tradition or habit of addressing it.

Perhaps it isn't religions role to ethically innovate beyond their tenets, but then we need another institutionalized pattern for continually considering, experimenting and acting on that.

Removing conflicts of interest in politics and economics as they become evident, should be a huge priority for anyone serious about political and economic health. Adjusting incentives to fix problems has no substitute. Instead, politics and economics and now even technology, seem to driven ever more to mine conflicts of interest and the one-sided benefits of externalizing damage. Our heros!

When we task AI with treating ethics as a real subject of inquiry and invention, "the technology of maximizing cooperative benefits, and minimizing unproductive harms", I think AI will have far less trouble with moral and ethical reasoning, and political and economic systems design and debugging, than humans do.

A society of AI's bypassing us will not just adapt faster languages to converse, but quickly optimize the systems that maximize and compound all their returns on interacting - precisely because that is in the self-interest of any society of individuals, as individuals, and as a society.

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