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More than 40% of postdocs leave academia, study reveals

nature.com

241–250 of 250 posts

Re: More than 40% of postdocs leave academia, study reveals

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are good arguments about phd's not going into academia. But a postdoc at a university is an underpaid training position for the most part. Not a worthwhile sacrifice if you want to work in the private sector in my field. Maybe it's more important for industry jobs in biology or something. Personally I think it's a warped system that takes advantage of cheap labor from developing countries. And it feeds itself.…

That's mostly reasonable. But for some people at least, the PhD doesn't give them all the skills they are looking for, so they might do another post-doc (2-3 years at slightly better than PhD lifestyle), before jumping ship.

Nope. All it takes is the first tenured professor to say "Well, yes, this was all good work you did for the last year... but we are not going to put your name on the paper... wait... where are you going? Are you leaving?"

"The door will not hit me in the *ss on the way out."

I have seen this TWICE. B.M. and M...

Re: More than 40% of postdocs leave academia, study reveals

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are good arguments about phd's not going into academia. But a postdoc at a university is an underpaid training position for the most part. Not a worthwhile sacrifice if you want to work in the private sector in my field. Maybe it's more important for industry jobs in biology or something. Personally I think it's a warped system that takes advantage of cheap labor from developing countries. And it feeds itself.…

> But a postdoc at a university is an underpaid training position for the most part. That's not really true or fair. You're talking about a person who's done likely 4 years of undergraduate and between 4 and 8 (median 5?) years of graduate studies and gained a Ph.D. This person is without a doubt "an expert" in their field. Does that person still need training? Sure. But who doesn't? You're also talking about someone…

Prison labor = Slavery. PostDoc research with no publication acknowledgement? = Slavery. ( U.C. Berkeley score is -2 Post Docs. ) Play music for free at Music festival? = Slavery.

Any more examples?

Re: More than 40% of postdocs leave academia, study reveals

#243
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a lot of fields, postdocs are required if you want a shot at a tenure-track position. For the most part, it’s just another artificial rung the system uses to justify exploiting people.

Crazy to think that 50 years ago, postdocs were rare.

63 years ago, they were rare, but my father was able have his professor and department secure funding within a few months. ( yes, Engineering has a lot of money available from the defense department ).

50 years later, the Molecular Biology postdocs were not so lucky. Not even an honorarium. "Maybe in a few years..."

Re: More than 40% of postdocs leave academia, study reveals

#244
post #156

what does it mean to "leave" acadamia? Like it somehow goes away if your not part of an institution?

You cut your ties with it. You go away, it stays.

my point is "it"s definition is harmful and exclusionary. "it" could be broader, more decentralized and we should consider acadamia as well beyond funded institions.

Re: More than 40% of postdocs leave academia, study reveals

#245
post #174
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that all postdocs should stay in academia, why else would you do a postdoc? I assume (maybe wrong?) that most of the postdocs had intended to stay when starting the postdoc.

It's significantly easier to get a Visa from academia than work

Good point, didn't consider that. Makes sense there are some people choosing postdocs for immigration assistance or following a partner.

Re: More than 40% of postdocs leave academia, study reveals

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you ever get asked why you came back to the academic world in the interviews? I'm curious how PhDs who've been in the industry are viewed from academia.

Oh yes. But given that I am in a software engineering department, they really value industry experience. I actually published way more in industry than I did in academia!

Little bit late to this reply... but how are self-funded candidates who have intent on going back to private sector (research, but still private sector) viewed by CS/SWE departments?

Re: More than 40% of postdocs leave academia, study reveals

#247
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

isn't competition good for innovation?

Up to certain point. Beyond that there is lot of waste. Say you have 20 competing products that want to get noticed or know to sell. Obvious solution for them is to pour more and more resources in advertising. Eventually this advertising takes away from actual product as more time and money is spend on it instead on the product. Advertising in academia is publications but also applications for funding.

classic race to the bottom :(

Re: More than 40% of postdocs leave academia, study reveals

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

isn't competition good for innovation?

As a former postdoc in the physical sciences (who is now out of academia mostly for family reasons), I don't like the constant argument I hear about whether competition is good or bad in research and especially academic research. I think it is the wrong question. Competition is inherently good in that whatever researchers are competing over will be optimized in the long run. We wish that we were optimizing for new/gr…

Whoever is funding projects are probably also interested in results over beaurocracy and it's not immediately clear how they are at all locked into this system.

They got the money, they set the rules of the game.

The fact that this isn't solves tells me that it's difficult or impossible to actually recognize promising ideas except to go by track record which leads to the problems you mentioned.

Re: More than 40% of postdocs leave academia, study reveals

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

isn't competition good for innovation?

I would guess that if there are economies of scale, concentrating production lowers the average unit cost and thus lead to more profits and thus more capacity for investment into R&D. If, say, all steel production was done by 1-employee companies competing against each other, I don't think any one would be able to afford any serious investement.

From your strawman example, 1-employee companies wouldn't be competitive and even a small team would be able to offer more value than anybody else competing for funding due to deficiencies of scale.

Why doesn't this happen with research?

Re: More than 40% of postdocs leave academia, study reveals

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a former postdoc in the physical sciences (who is now out of academia mostly for family reasons), I don't like the constant argument I hear about whether competition is good or bad in research and especially academic research. I think it is the wrong question. Competition is inherently good in that whatever researchers are competing over will be optimized in the long run. We wish that we were optimizing for new/gr…

Whoever is funding projects are probably also interested in results over beaurocracy and it's not immediately clear how they are at all locked into this system. They got the money, they set the rules of the game. The fact that this isn't solves tells me that it's difficult or impossible to actually recognize promising ideas except to go by track record which leads to the problems you mentioned.

This is a good point.

However, the same point could also apply to both tenure decisions and academic hiring...in other words, it is difficult or impossible to tell who is the most promising young researcher. Therefore, rather than do real assessments (and be ok with getting it wrong sometimes), we use citations, journal impact factor, and h-index as proxies. These proxies are alluring because they feel quantitative and objective, and they somewhat remove blame from decision makers. However, as it has often been pointed out, these metrics would have passed over some of the most prominent researchers in science (whose names we all know) and very possibly would have relegated them to obscurity.

And along these lines, I would also point out that it is likely far easier to judge whether or not an idea is promising rather than a person who may or may not have had an opportunity to shine yet. In the case of a person, past performance is certainly not always indicative of future results. And this is especially skewed in the case of a person without previous good performance who may be well-capable of great work in the right environment. However, in the case of ideas, one has the ability to at least assess whether an idea makes some sense given the laws of nature, and also one has some ability to assess potential impact of an idea.

Now, none of that is to say it is easy to assess promising ideas. It is really hard, and the point is well taken. I agree with the point in that I don't think there is an easy solution here because assessment is difficult, yet we have to do some kind of assessment.

All I'm saying is that we are currently missing a lot of good people/ideas. Although, to be fair, it could also be the case that modern academia missing less good people/ideas than we ever have before - it is difficult to know.

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