Live data from Hacker News

US judge finds NSO Group liable for hacking journalists via WhatsApp

reuters.com

241–250 of 306 posts

Re: US judge finds NSO Group liable for hacking journalists via WhatsApp

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on, you know me better than that. In this case, the comment fit the conversation. The original comment was a short, pithy, and rather sarcastic one that was, nonetheless, correct. They pointed out that we need to write higher-Quality software, in order to give folks like the NSO people fewer “hooks.” The NSO folks are smart, dedicated people, that, in other circumstances, we would admire for their creativity and…

I don’t think you’ll find anyone who would disagree with the premise that we should improve software quality. Yes, even the people who value iteration speed and shipping. All things being equal, better quality is always better, because of course it is. The problem arises when all things are not equal, and something needs to give. Perfect quality is generally not attainable or even desirable, because it sacrifices thi…

Point taken.

But I feel that the root cause is attitude and encouragement. Sort of “the wolf you feed” kind of thing.

That’s not really something that can be addressed by technology or even education.

That’s the kind of thing that we handle with social infrastructure. Peer pressure, cultural norms, “tribal knowledge,” etc.

In my mind, the best way to approach that, is by contributing small, almost “throwaway” human-interaction-level “course corrections.” We set the examples we want others to follow, and talk about why we do stuff, as opposed to always making it about how.

Some of the most valuable lessons that I learned about Quality, in my career, were offhand comments, made by folks that lived Quality, and demonstrated the required mindset.

Re: US judge finds NSO Group liable for hacking journalists via WhatsApp

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on, you know me better than that. In this case, the comment fit the conversation. The original comment was a short, pithy, and rather sarcastic one that was, nonetheless, correct. They pointed out that we need to write higher-Quality software, in order to give folks like the NSO people fewer “hooks.” The NSO folks are smart, dedicated people, that, in other circumstances, we would admire for their creativity and…

I don’t think you’ll find anyone who would disagree with the premise that we should improve software quality. Yes, even the people who value iteration speed and shipping. All things being equal, better quality is always better, because of course it is. The problem arises when all things are not equal, and something needs to give. Perfect quality is generally not attainable or even desirable, because it sacrifices thi…

> My knowledge of mechanics is great but solving climate change is a huge problem, both deeply technical but also social and political.

> More relevant would be a discussion about, say, memory safety, or auditing, or whatever that is actually on-topic and actionable.

It's curious that the first sentence mentions social and political issues, whereas the second sentence completely ignores them. The original comment of ChrisMarshallNY was addressing the social and political issues in tech, albeit vaguely.

You also mention valuing "iteration speed" without acknowledging the predictable devastation this has on quality.

Shipping less, and shipping slower, is on-topic and actionable.

The biggest barriers to addressing global warming are social and political. Many powerful people don't want to address it. Indeed, they've intentionally promoted the idea that the problem doesn't even exist. Purely technical discussions are futilely rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic if they ignore this.

I do think that ChrisMarshallNY misdiagnoses the problem a bit:

> I feel as if the current tech community has a baseline ethos of “write code as badly as we can get away with,” and that ethos is rewarded.

The second clause of the sentence is redundant, because the first clause is the heart of the matter. Anyone who operates purely according to financial incentives will inevitably cut corners. Crap is profitable, for various economic reasons that are beyond the scope of this comment. In order to achieve high quality consistently, you have to care about quality, about craftsmanship, independently of financial awards. This doesn't mean you don't care about financial awards, just that you have to care about both quality and money. For lack of a better term, you need business ethics, where some ethical principles are inviolable. You can seek profit without seeking profit maximization.

Note that religion is largely independent of financial considerations:

> At that company, Quality was a religion, and they took it to the point of obsession.

Re: US judge finds NSO Group liable for hacking journalists via WhatsApp

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

How many non-combatants have died due to being killed deliberately, and how many have died due to being collateral damage in a warzone? I believe the distinction and ratio between the two things is very important when trying to determine the intent of Israel (as outside observers) and whether or not they are perpetrating genocide.

[deleted]

Re: US judge finds NSO Group liable for hacking journalists via WhatsApp

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

How many non-combatants have died due to being killed deliberately, and how many have died due to being collateral damage in a warzone? I believe the distinction and ratio between the two things is very important when trying to determine the intent of Israel (as outside observers) and whether or not they are perpetrating genocide.

[flagged]

Re: US judge finds NSO Group liable for hacking journalists via WhatsApp

#245
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it get worse? He didn’t actually leave a source. NSO is certainly the most nefarious known agency.

I think the key word there is “known” which I appreciate you saying. We still don’t know who created Bitcoin, what are the odds there are more… effective? groups than NSO operating in the US? I’d say greater than zero.

This is actually really wild

BTC has a current market cap of around $1.9 trillion

And we don’t know who created it!

Additionally, it’s estimated Satoshi’s wallet holds about 1M BTC, out of ~20M BTC total supply

So there is a mystery account of BTC that owns almost $1T or the equivalent of 5% of all BTCs market cap

Re: US judge finds NSO Group liable for hacking journalists via WhatsApp

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was a buffer overflow in a VOIP stack: * https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/14/18622744/whatsapp-spyware... Interestingly enough, Signal (and others) had the same sort of vulnerability on Android from a WebRTC stack: * https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2020/08/exploiting-an... The big issue in both cases is that the exploit was triggered before the user answered the call. I think the moral here is that a secure…

The other moral here is to stop using memory unsafe languages. It's just so incredibly dumb that we keep making excuses for this.

I think most influential companies such as Microsoft snd Google have said that c and c++ need to be deprecated. I think replacing old code with memory safe languages takes time, effort and money. Hopefully in a decade we can this can be fully done.

Re: US judge finds NSO Group liable for hacking journalists via WhatsApp

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the first part, at least in spirit. The second part though doesn't make sense. If the US president can send drones to kill terrorists without taking them to court, surely he can order hacking their phones. If you think that there's no case where the latter is ok you shouldn't you fight against the former first?

> send drones to kill terrorists The part that you miss is, are they only killing "terrorists" extrajudicially? To take that propaganda at its face value is to ask, what else could they be killing brown people for, if not terrorism?

To further this. Look at how easily they are bringing terrorism charges on American citizens now (check out the Mangione case)

And I would guess they’ll use the opportunity to increase the reach as well

Re: US judge finds NSO Group liable for hacking journalists via WhatsApp

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, extrajudicial murder justified by labeling the victim “terrorist” is illegal and should not be accepted in a free and open society. The ‘terrorist’ label was invented as a means of abrogating human rights by governments who felt they were encumbered by the obligation to protect human rights. “Terrorist” labeling is a totalitarian-authoritarian apparatus to avoid culpability for its actions when a govern…

Do you not think that terrorism exists, that the label has been co-opted for other purposes, that terrorists cannot be treated as combatants, that non-declared-war conflicts should not have deliberate strikes or something else? It seems to me like terrorism has a pretty plain definition: Using violence against civilians/non-combatants to further a ideological goal, primarily via fear. It's often misused as an excuse,…

And now watch as the definition is stretched to fit whatever the powerful want to do

Like how they are now charging the UHC CEO suspect with terrorism

Then, if you support the guy, now a terrorist, well then you can be called a terrorist too

Re: US judge finds NSO Group liable for hacking journalists via WhatsApp

#249
post #37
post #13

There should be no difference with usual botnet owner/ransomware gangs and such companies. Management should go to prison for good 20-30 years for that and being extradited worldwide. Considering that ransomware gangs are probably less harmful to the society than guys who hack journalists and politicians, putting their lifes at literal risks, not just their pockets. There should be no "legal" hacking of someone's dev…

Imagine if they chase NSO as hard as they chased Wikileaks

Well NSO does their work for them, so that’s not gonna happen

Also, look at how the govt has acted in the last year or so, they will never move against Israel

Re: US judge finds NSO Group liable for hacking journalists via WhatsApp

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not hypothetical, the fact is that killing drones are used in practice, and it just doesn't make sense to oppose lesser measures that are being used without judgement when killing is allowed.

> killing is allowed You said it is okay / allowed because "terrorists". Otherwise, it is a heinous crime. Just like the Pegasus one.

Ever heard of drone papers?

https://theintercept.com/drone-papers/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Hale

Post reply on HN