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The unbearable slowness of being: Why do we live at 10 bits/s?

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Re: The unbearable slowness of being: Why do we live at 10 bits/s?

#241

> Why can we only think about one thing at a time? Maybe this is just a perception thing. Sure, you can only really keep up one stream of thought, visualization or inner dialogue (whatever you want to call it) at a time, but perhaps that's because we learn all our lives that direct communication is a one-channel, linear thing--speaking and listening focused on one topic at a time. Our brain does plenty of thinking in…

I don't know what ever became of the line of research, but there was a very interesting book I read decades ago called Descartes' Error by Antonio Damasio that examined case studies of patients who had their corpus collosum severed, resulting in a split brain. You could show their left and right eyes different images and ask them what they saw and they would write and speak different answers, because speech and writi…

It's like UIs being single-threaded, because otherwise you would have chaos if several background threads are trying to update the UI at the same time.

Re: The unbearable slowness of being: Why do we live at 10 bits/s?

#243
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did read the summary and see what you saw, but that still leads me to believe the headline of the article is clickbait and that the authors don't understand that action signalling doesn't require the same bandwidth as information processing, but even then it's way more than 10b/s. Look at a backhoe. It has a few levers and a couple pedals. EXTREMELY simple interface. Each lever and pedal is basically 1 bit for enga…

Here's a simple reaction test: https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime It's 1 bit (discriminate red vs. green) but I doubt many here can manage 100 ms, which is what it would take to implement 10 of those decisions per second.

Can you point me to the book that says that "Booleans" are encoded in the human brain just like in a binary computer and they take exactly 1 bit to store? I mean, why not assume error correction, while we are at it, or some kind of compression algorithm that reduces the size further?

If that sounds ridiculous to you, you are beginning to get it. Every single brain cell works on electric potential (a continous value). Not a single one of them can be said to be in the "zero" or "one" state (a discrete value).

Re: The unbearable slowness of being: Why do we live at 10 bits/s?

#244
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Listen to a podcast at double speed. Assuming a normal talking speed of 150 words per minute, 300 words per minute of written word is not 10 bits per second.

Consider normal text compression and you're left with a few bits at best for most of those "fast talkers/listeners." And the human brain is very good at compression.

> And the human brain is very good at compression

Yes, but in order to measure its bitrate accurately you need to tell us whether that compression is gzip, zlib, zip or 7zip. They don't all produce the same results.

If we are going to be utterly ridiculous about this conversation, let's at least be complete.

Re: The unbearable slowness of being: Why do we live at 10 bits/s?

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such reductionist analyses are reliably blind to the complexity of being embodied in physical reality.

Reductionism is the only way humanity ever progressed on anything.

Right, just like when we used to believe that "unexplained thing happened" = "god". Can't really get more reductive than that.

Re: The unbearable slowness of being: Why do we live at 10 bits/s?

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This type of comment is my least favorite on HN. "Seems quite trivial," "non-sequitur to compare them," "foolish." I am not able to read the paper as I do not have access, but the published perspective has 131 citations which seem to consider everything from task-specific human abilities, to cortical processing speeds, to perception and limb movements and eye movements, and so on. I'm glad you thought about it too, b…

(Disclosure: I’m a former academic with more than a handful of papers to my name) The parent comment is harshly criticizing (fairly, in my view) a paper , and not the authors. Smart people can write foolish things (ask me how I know). It’s good, actually, to call out foolishness, especially in a concrete way as the parent comment does. We do ourselves no favors by being unkind to each other. But we also do ourselves…

I realized that I do have institutional access and so I was able to read the paper, and I stand by my initial criticism of the above comment.

"It seems to me all this paper does is define tasks in a highly abstract way that imposes a uniform cost to process '1 bit of task information'."

The paper uses this number and acknowledges that it is not the only possible measure, and explains why they use this number and how it was derived. It is just the start of the paper, not "all this paper does." The paper primarily focuses on counterarguments to this number to then address the primary question of the relationship between the inner and outer brain.

A few questions it poses: does the superior colliculus contribute to a bottom-up "saliency map" to ultimately direct the attentional bottleneck in cognition? Why does the brain use the same neural circuitry for both rapid/parallel sensory processing and slow/serial cognition? This is not even how other parts of the body work (e.g., type I and II muscle fibers). Perhaps the associated routing machinery between input and output accounts for the billions of neurons? Maybe, like the visual cortex, the prefrontal cortex has a fine-grained organization of thousands of small modules each dedicated to a specific microtask?

We do ourselves the most favors by reading research with some skepticism, and asking questions. We do ourselves no favors by writing comments after only reading an abstract (please, tell me if I'm wrong). I only point out that discounting research so blithely does nothing for improving research. This was a perspective paper - an author asking questions to better understand a possible issue and guide research. And maybe the commenter is right, maybe this is the wrong focus, but I do not believe it was truly considered.

Re: The unbearable slowness of being: Why do we live at 10 bits/s?

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider normal text compression and you're left with a few bits at best for most of those "fast talkers/listeners." And the human brain is very good at compression.

> And the human brain is very good at compression Yes, but in order to measure its bitrate accurately you need to tell us whether that compression is gzip, zlib, zip or 7zip. They don't all produce the same results. If we are going to be utterly ridiculous about this conversation, let's at least be complete.

And were those measurements made with vsync on by any chance?

Re: The unbearable slowness of being: Why do we live at 10 bits/s?

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean like typing? Typing we click buttons accurately in sequence, people can type way faster than 10 bits per second. Then consider something more complex like drawing, you draw way way way more than 10 bits a second.

not like typing, which is largely automatic; conscious decisions per second. EDIT: not the expanded bit rate, the optimally compressed bit rate, if that makes sense? EDIT2: typing at 90 wpm is 1,5 wps, or <10 bps according to Shannon (~1 bit per letter, 5 letters per word)

> not like typing, which is largely automatic; conscious decisions per second.

That’s kind of a cop out - at what point do very quick conscious decisions become “automatic.”

Re: The unbearable slowness of being: Why do we live at 10 bits/s?

#249

It seems very odd that the article seems to be measuring the information content of specific tasks that the brain is doing or specific objects that it is perceiving. But the brain is a general-purpose computer, not a speed-card computer, or English text computer, or binary digit computer, or Rubik's cube computer. When you look at a Rubik's cube, you don't just pick out specific positions of colored squares relative…

Don’t forget typing in English is also outcome of processing all the context.

Also not so conscious context like „I am writing a reply on HN not on Reddit - making obvious silly pun about cats is not going to make upvotes - making quasi intellectual comment about subconscious processing should earn me some”.

Re: The unbearable slowness of being: Why do we live at 10 bits/s?

#250
The back of the envelope computations are shockingly shallow and meaningless.

(20 Questions, from the intro) Trying to think of a thing for the game is not a search over a set of known things. Just saying the possibility set has size 2^N doesn't mean that choosing something in the set consists of processing the set. But even if that were the case, and if you do consider each of 2^N options, the consideration process itself is not trivial and probably varies wildly.

(English typing) Touch typists do not (only) simply convert an existing/known string to a sequence of hand actions by mapping character to action. There are whole words and sequences that become units/tokens from the standpoint of muscle memory and processing (this will be relevant to the rubik's cube topic as well). When i type, there's a sort of planning and queueing of actions, but also there's monitoring of actions that allows fast error correction with pressing delete a number of times or holding it and costly determining when the error has been reached, and resuming afterward. Of course the process likely varies from person to person, but there's such a host of other things going on that should count as part of the information processed in this simple behavior that the example and numbers used in the paper for it are utterly useless even as estimates.

(Rubik's cube blind speed solving) Again we see reference to the entire possibility space (from the perspective of possible configurations of the puzzle). But solvers do not identify the configuration they encounter with reference to the space, nor do they search the space for it. They look for patterns and ignore what they cannot use for the strategy they have practiced. The cuber often does not commit to memory the whole configuration, but will often convert it to a custom and bespoke mnemonic. It's just utter nonsense to refer to the number of possible configurations, it has nothing directly to do with what the human is doing.

If I memorize a 30 word passage, i have not "processed the set of possible 30 word passages".

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