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Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

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Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#241

Post by lambdaphagy »

giraffe_lady wrote: post #112
JackFr wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filioque - to this day the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church disagree on whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, or from the Father and the Son.

Yeah but most lay people from either branch couldn't tell you the practical consequences of this. It's widely known & considered important because it's a remaining theological justification for the schism, not the other way around.

Consider the analogy: the difference between two programs is one line of source, and most end users couldn’t tell you the practical consequences of that change.

The Orthodox allege that the Filioque amounts to a demotion of the Holy Spirit. Comparing the liturgies, disciplines and general character of the two churches, it’s difficult to feel totally confident that they don’t have a point.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#242

Post by NemoNobody »

mistrial9 wrote: post #101
NemoNobody wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gnosticism is a bit of a catchall - the Ophites were a sect or branch and not by any means the standard - it's difficult to say there is an established "Standard Gnostic Theology" as there really isn't, there are some common deviations from modern Christianity that rendered them more similar thru a modern lens than they may be, tho they are some common Gnostic themes, like self awareness but snake charming isn't one.…

yes agree and .. there are branches of Christianity across the world that did not lose the connection to warfare. There are plenty of people who fight fiercely (in real life) that espouse Christ deeply.. a current Japan martial arts cage fighting champion from Brazil dedicated his whole victory speech to Christ recently, for example.

We are not supposed to do what we kno kno is bad - nothing is set in set in stone anymore, that's the Greatest Commandment actually, God saying you kno well enough to do this on your own without these rules I etched into stone for you, just follow this one rule and you will be fine - as if all of did follow the greatest Commandment we would remake this work out the broken thing it is now and into the Kingdom of Heaven - bc that was very clearly stated to be WITHIN US.

God will only bring his house down after we fix the place up a little bit, WE must save ourselves this time.

It's not wrong to violently beat up a man in a ring for money if that money has agreed to it - I don't think it's ideal per say, so it will come with consequences and over time, if it isn't what God wants us doing, those consequences will become very costly. That's how all of this works - we can do whatever's we want but we will face the consequences and there will always be them, eventually we will learn that even tho we can do anything we want, we shouldn't, we should just follow that Greatest Commandment - that truly is the easiest thing to do.

Tbh if you think about it at all, the whole idea of mortal, unforgivable, hellfire worthy sin - it all falls down when you consider that God made this reality and is there y responsible for all that he allows to occur within it, the exact same way if I make a violent sexual game for kids, its my fault, not the children for playing it.

Thou shall not judge. BC we can't - we don't have any ideas what is worthy of judgement or not and we can't fr our current point of view.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#243

Post by jim-jim-jim »

xdennis wrote: post #170
kibwen wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even today plenty of Christian sects refuse to recognize the council of Nicaea's interpretation of the trinity, including the Mormons and the Jehovah's witnesses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism (Whether or not any of these flirt with polytheism is up for debate.) Meanwhile, the Catholic church's own profusion of saints whom you are supposed to beseech for specific blessings is dangerously close to a…

As an Atheist (formally Orthodox), I think I can adjudicate this. The problem with the First Council of Nicaea was that it was decided wrong. The whole "there are three gods, but only one god" is inherently confusing. There's a reason why Arianism keeps recurring over and over again. All the new nations who have been introduced to this aspect of Christianity find it bizarre. If the decision would have been more along…

> There's a reason why Arianism keeps recurring over and over again.

I don't have the numbers on hand, but I recently read that a remarkable number of US Evangelicals regard each member of the Trinity as an autonomous entity. This might invite you to scoff at sola scriptura, but I can't imagine the numbers being better for other denominations.

It's a strange thought: how many, maybe most devotees are actually heretics, especially when you consider more remote cultures. I've been looking for fiction that explores this idea. I think Black Robe touches upon it, but I haven't seen it in two decades and could be misremembering.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#244

Post by [deleted] »

JackFr wrote: post #103
kibwen wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even today plenty of Christian sects refuse to recognize the council of Nicaea's interpretation of the trinity, including the Mormons and the Jehovah's witnesses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism (Whether or not any of these flirt with polytheism is up for debate.) Meanwhile, the Catholic church's own profusion of saints whom you are supposed to beseech for specific blessings is dangerously close to a…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filioque - to this day the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church disagree on whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, or from the Father and the Son.

[deleted]

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#245

Post by NemoNobody »

krapp wrote: post #238
kcplate wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily but like much interpretations differ. An old retired pastor friend once described the story of Mary anointing Christ with the expensive oil and being chastised by Judas as a “waste” with Jesus correcting Judas (John 12). He expressed that story as possibly symbolic of how we should regard Christ as the glorious king of kings and despite His servant humility, He is still deserving of the finest we have…

It does seem like an odd attitude for a messiah who commands his followers to give up their entire identity for a life of extreme poverty and charity - who took a whip to the moneychangers in the temple and denounced the rich as unworthy of heaven - to insist on opulence and luxury for himself. I think Judas had a point.

It's bc it's added later to justify this bs - that's why it's Judas being corrected bc the person making the addition or changes already knew he was the bad guy.

T

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#246

Post by dmonitor »

alsetmusic wrote: post #204
bjackman wrote: post #28

I find it pretty cool how the spread of Christianity can be tracked so finely that a 50 update in earliest arrival time is exciting! I started listening to a podcast called "the history of the early church" to learn a bit more about that but unfortunately I think the target audience was Christians interested in theology rather than nerds interested in history. Recommendations for books etc are welcome!

I've been reading a lot about the early church for about a year and really enjoying it. I'm an atheist but I'm also a history nerd so it's been truly fascinating. Here are some that I've enjoyed: - The Origin of Satan by Elaine Pagels; I read this one so casually that I don't have a good summary due to poor memory. - The Passover Plot by Hugh J Schonfield; author contends that Jesus believed that he was the prophesie…

> The Passover Plot by Hugh J Schonfield; author contends that Jesus believed that he was the prophesied Messiah and engineered his arrest and crucifixion out of sheer genius and clever actions. Fantastic read.

Orchestrating the destruction of the Jewish temple (and thus most Jewish religious practices) at the hands of the Roman Empire after his own death would have been quite the feat

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#247

Post by ARandomerDude »

NemoNobody wrote: post #234
ARandomerDude wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly right. One way to know the Sabbath is moral rather than ceremonial is the Sabbath was established in Genesis 2:1-3. That means the Sabbath pre-dates the Law, and even pre-dates sin. So Adam and Eve would have kept the Sabbath before the Fall, and so would have all their posterity if they had never fallen. As confirmation of that idea, Exodus 20:11 states that the reason God gives the fourth commandment is bec…

Adam and Eve had no conception of the Sabbath - they never worked or labored for anything prior to leaving the garden. God walked and talked with them daily, whenever apparently - what need for their to be to recognize that which is accessible and available all the days. What purpose would a God have at all for the life inside his creations to set aside 1/7 of their time "for him" anyways? Lots of silly, silly stuff…

Genesis 2:15 ESV The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#248

Post by atombender »

bjackman wrote: post #28

I find it pretty cool how the spread of Christianity can be tracked so finely that a 50 update in earliest arrival time is exciting! I started listening to a podcast called "the history of the early church" to learn a bit more about that but unfortunately I think the target audience was Christians interested in theology rather than nerds interested in history. Recommendations for books etc are welcome!

The excellent podcast The Rest is History has a vaguely connected series of episodes on the Roman Empire and its fall that includes a lot of discussion about the evolution of Christianity. The newest cycle, "Warlords of the West" (3 episodes on the emergence of the Frankish kingdom following the fall of the Roman Empire, a fascinating period not often talked about) and "Charlemagne" (3-part episode just on Charlemagne, who did more than any other Medieval figure ensured the spread of Christianity) have excellent about the political and religious forces that spread Christianity through Europe.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#249

Post by wahern »

FearNotDaniel wrote: post #5
Oarch wrote: post #4

I'll never be able to read about us digitally unrolling fragile scrolls without it seemingly like otherworldly sci-fi technology. The translated blessing text itself seems almost modern. Funny to see how little we've changed in some ways.

Speaking as a participant in a number of somewhat "modern" Christian traditions, I think one factor is that we have changed quite a lot and then some strands of the faith have decided to go back into the past and seek what we lost from the early days. One example being certain rock'n'roll churches where people stick their hands up in the air while singing and praying: I heard one pastor defend this as being "this is…

I believe what you're describing is "orans": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orans

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#250

Post by dmonitor »

NemoNobody wrote: post #230
marky1991 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very unusual context for me, in my tradition (reformed Presbyterian) we definitely don't view things that we way in general, the God of the old testament is the God of the new and Jesus didn't wholesale make the old testament invalid, only the parts of the law that he had already satisfied. (Eg no need for more animal sacrifices, we've already sacrificed enough via Jesus) (Notably, the moral law and parts of…

You are a believer I take it - did he not split the veil? Why do you think you can pick and chose what he invalidates and what he doesn't? He left one - ONE rule with two parts, it's very simple, even children have the ability to understand. Every Christian I speak always says something like this - "a common misconception" " not my understanding" "according to the church fathers" - so many quite not Jesus at to count…

The shape of the modern church frustrates me to no end.

I consider myself a believer, but every time I look at a Christian organization I find their foundational document to be "The Book of Common Prayer" or some other 16th century nonsense.

Do we really need to have each member give 10% of their income so we can pay one guy upwards of six figures to give a 30-minute motivational speech once a week? That was probably useful when he was the only person that knew how to read, but today I find that the kind of person who takes that job is completely detached from the lives of ordinary people who go to work for a living.

The attitude many believers treat non-believers with is also appalling. The baseline I've seen is "you should be friends with non-believers because you can convert them". The worst I've seen is borderline xenophobia and encouraging to only consume media from approved christian-aligned sources. My younger sister attended a christian high school, and the student that spoke at her graduation gave a speech I can only describe as "we must retake the culture from our enemies, deus vult". I was appalled, but many of the adults in attendance ate it up. I don't remember Jesus warning people about enemies. I do remember him warning people about being curt towards their neighbors. Do modern christians not know what a Samaritan means?

The alignment of politics with evangelicalism has been awful, and I'm not looking forward to where it will lead.

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