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The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

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Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#241

Post by chamomeal »

samvher wrote: post #92
throw_pm23 wrote: post #20

The teaching method I find best is a teacher explaining and writing with chalk on the blackboard, and the students taking handwritten notes on paper, asking whenever something is not clear. In other words, the most boring classical setup possible. Of course all the nuances and little details make all the difference: board picture, structure, teacher personality, pacing, choice of topic, interaction, motivation, excit…

Seems like there might be some survivorship bias here, right? You teach students who made it to a top university because they thrived in the classical setup which is the most common one. Presumably your preferred teaching style aligning well with the classical approach also helped get you to that position. Personally I feel like my education/learning only really started to take off when resources like EdX and Courser…

Same. I could never EVER pay attention in class.

I learned math from khan academy, and physics from my textbooks. When I exams were coming up, I would skip every single lecture to read my textbooks and do practice problems.

Did that all the way through physics undergrad, and I never would have graduated via the standard lecture + questions method.

Maybe my professors were mediocre, but I think I’m just not built for classrooms!

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#242

Post by unsui »

theossuary wrote: post #200
lolinder wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The incredibly frustrating thing about this is that this is always done in the name of "equity", but the result is that the system perpetuates the inequities that already exist. Because the public schools force kids into grade bands and don't allow children who are ahead to learn at their level, wealthy parents (and only wealthy parents) figure out ways to supplement or move their kids into schools that are appropria…

This is a silly thing to say. There's no evidence that edtech was forced to band students to grade levels due to equity. It's just as likely it happened due to Bush's Leave No Child Behind, or out of a desire for administrators to follow rules.

Reminiscent of the recent HN submission for "Security is a Useless Controls Problem", re: 5 monkeys & ladder expt.:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42110149

The crutch isn't the EdTech itself. The numerous examples regarding WGU's success for some self-driven training here suffices to suggest the tech isn't the issue.

It's the metrics required as part of legislation such as NCLB that effectively bind administrations to ensure adherence to a common curriculum, regardless of capacity or competence.

This effectively imposes Goodhart's law, since the only way to meet these measures on scale is to teach to the test, and only the test.

This ensures that no actual deep learning occurs for those falling back, while hamstringing those who master the subject matter early since there is no mechanism for rewarding early mastery.

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#243

Post by johnnyanmac »

donatj wrote: post #10

I work in EdTech, I have for a very long time now, and the problem I have seen is no one in education is willing to ACTUALLY let kids learn at their own level. The promise of EdTech was that kids could learn where they are. A kid who's behind can actually continue to learn rather than being left behind. A kid who's ahead can be nurtured. We had this. It worked well, in my opinion at least, and the number of complaint…

Man, No Child Left Behind left a larger mental scar than I ever imagined. "learning they shouldn't be"? I never would have gotten fast tracked in math, and by extension gotten into a decent engineering school, if that's how my teachers thought. Then university wonders why kids are less prepared.

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#244

Post by krapp »

dehrmann wrote: post #237
fny wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An ill-educated populace is easier to manipulate, gravitate towards consumerism, and won't hold their leaders as accountable. This is a reactionary take. Math, science, and basic language skills do not lead to political upheaval, and are incredibly valuable skills to the capital class. Leadership would be more apt to propagandize social studies and suppress dissent. China easily comes to mind as a counter argument.…

If the US electorate had better economics education, they would have thought both the [2024] candidates were economic idiots.

If the US electorate had better economics education, the 2024 candidates might have been forced to present sane and reasonable economic platforms, because doing so would have actual political value. Dare I say at least one of those candidates wouldn't even have made it to the primaries. Which I leave as an exercise for the reader.

They aren't economic idiots, they just know most American voters mistrust any economic concept more complex than "taxes bad. China bad. jobs good."

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#245

Post by ozim »

donatj wrote: post #10

I work in EdTech, I have for a very long time now, and the problem I have seen is no one in education is willing to ACTUALLY let kids learn at their own level. The promise of EdTech was that kids could learn where they are. A kid who's behind can actually continue to learn rather than being left behind. A kid who's ahead can be nurtured. We had this. It worked well, in my opinion at least, and the number of complaint…

Another instance where technical solution is not the solution for people problem. We can make all bells and whistles but if people won’t use it there is nothing more that can be done unfortunately.

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#246

Post by [deleted] »

phil21 wrote: post #236
lolinder wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The incredibly frustrating thing about this is that this is always done in the name of "equity", but the result is that the system perpetuates the inequities that already exist. Because the public schools force kids into grade bands and don't allow children who are ahead to learn at their level, wealthy parents (and only wealthy parents) figure out ways to supplement or move their kids into schools that are appropria…

> wealthy parents (and only wealthy parents) figure out ways to supplement or move their kids into schools that are appropriate for their level. Not true. AP courses and magnet schools are the sole way for working class/poor students to get ahead in life in the public school system. Myself and many friends took advantage of this, and zero had wealthy parents. Many had food scarcity levels of poverty at home but recei…

[deleted]

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#247

Post by ndriscoll »

Afton wrote: post #106
michaelrpeskin wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's "equity" for you. We can't be unfair and give someone something that makes them better. It's easier to keep the top kids down than it is to lift the bottom kids up.

To be fair, it is less about "keeping top kids down" and more about "let's use our very scarce resources helping the bottom kids". Put that way it seems less malicious, and more like probably the right thing to do over all, while still being extremely frustrating if you are, or are the parent of, a 'top kid'. I know that in Seattle, I've been very frustrated with all the talk and promise of our school to provide enri…

The top kids don't need more resources. They need to be segregated from the bottom kids, which can be done with the same number of teachers by tracking.

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#248

Post by rahimnathwani »

The argument Jared makes in the body of his article ("The argument I’m making is that digital technologies so often aren’t used for learning that...") is less bold and sweeping than the one in the title ("The EdTech Revolution Has Failed").

It's true that edtech hasn't (yet) created an educational utopia, as some people may have imagined or hoped. But there are educational technology tools that my son (8yo) uses several times per week, that undoubtedly help him to learn important stuff:

1. Math Academy (truly amazing for 4th grade math all the way to first year of undergrad: https://www.bit.ly/ma-way)

2. Skritter (for learning to write Chinese characters)

3. Anki (flashcard program).

4. Octostudio (for learning to code, by the same folks as MIT Scratch)

#1 and #2 are both much more efficient (learning per unit of time) than any other method I've seen. They (along with #3) use spaced repetition and retrieval practice as part of their secret sauce.

But they are also highly domain-specific. Math Academy relies on thousands of hand-crafted math problems, all designed within a (hand-crafted) graph of topics that students must master. Skritter has tools that give people (adults or children) an easy on-ramp to learning the broad strokes of each character, and more advanced modes that train more precision.

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#249

Post by thinkingtoilet »

Retric wrote: post #133
csa wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What, specifically, is an example of an exam not measuring proficiency Not op, but a few examples: 1. Test structures that reward good time management. The paper SAT is a good example of this. The early items in a section are (were?) easy, the middle items were medium difficulty, and the toughest items were towards the end. A good test take would manage their time so that they spent the most amount of time on quest…

I think test prep allowing people to increase SAT scores is actually a useful feature not a bug. If you’re the kind of person who’s going to put extra effort to add a few points to your results, you are also the kind of person more likely to do well in collage classes.

It's not really being the "kind of person who’s going to put extra effort" and more the "kind of person who is privileged enough to have parents that care about their education, know that outside resources exist, and have the time and money to utilize those resources".

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#250

Post by krunck »

tqi wrote: post #208
basilgohar wrote: post #68

As someone who's worked in EdTech for around two decades, I know why people think this. It's what a lot people here have already said. Education is what is failing, EdTech didn't magically solve this. Just like money, you can't just throw tech at education and expect it to solve anything. There are too many profitable incentives to poor education that are conspiring to perpetuate it. An ill-educated populace is easie…

"There are too many profitable incentives... Power generally resides with those who benefit... The system is setup to fail because that's what's profitable in the long run for those seeking such profits. And because they can lobby, and use their wealth to influence politics, it won't change. Something else needs to happen first." Who exactly are you talking about?

Google?
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