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Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

mcc-berlin.net

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Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#241

Post by panick21_ »

pjmlp wrote: post #5

Except this only helped the folks living close to big train station hubs, across the country there are plenty of places where the car is the only viable option.

What's your definition of 'big train station hubs'? There are plenty of places that have small train station that connect to bigger hubs. The claim that its only useful for people close to 'big hubs' is simply false.

Yes there are places where cars are better in some aspects, but that is the case no matter how the ticket is structured. You can't magically extend the train network by reducing ticket price.

And if cars are the only viable option is questionable, as there are many people even in those places who don't own a car. They just have to live with subpar bus system or other local transport.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#242

Post by panick21_ »

pjmlp wrote: post #48
Glawen wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany is a dense country with a developed rail network, you are never far from a train station. Bear in mind that this includes also city transportation, which makes it a great deal. My gripe with the ticket is that traveling with bikes in regional train became a gamble, you never know if you can get in as there is so many people inside already (and even more when the previous train got cancelled, which happens a l…

Yeah, but doesn't make the Bahn more punctual, or reduce those comute times from 3h down to the 1h that is possible by car, not having to jump across four connections, with related delays and dropped connections.

The 49 Euro ticket is about local transportation, when you are talking about 3h you are talking about intercity transportation not covered by this ticket.

Intercity travel has lots of punctuality problems but many of the local train operations and S-Bahn are often much superior. At least in places where I have been, like Karlsruhe, Berlin, Hamburg the local transport has been very good.

Not everything in live is about long distance communing.

> 3h down to the 1h

That completely depends on the details of your route and ignores lots of possible aspects. As a universal statement its just outright false.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#243

Post by [deleted] »

eptcyka wrote: post #44
lispm wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everything seems to be stuck in paper based processes, only occasionally and very listlessly digitized. That's nonsense. Most public transport is digital by now. > The DB Navigator is so terrible It's not terrible. I managed to book all my train travels just fine with it, also using a business bahncard which gives me a 50% discount on all trains.

I couldn't pay for my ubahn with a credit card on the bahn, and the app required me to use some kind of a paypal derivative. I did not pay. Regardless of whether it is digitized or not, regional trains suck. To pay on the train, I think I was forced to use cash. Further, the process for getting refunds when you miss a connection requires one to fill in forms on paper and scan them in and then send in via email. Or wa…

[deleted]

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#244

Post by weinzierl »

barrkel wrote: post #149
weinzierl wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I LOVE the German transit system" I have some experience with the public transport systems in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, France and Belgium. In my opinion Germany's is the worst. Everything seems to be stuck in paper based processes, only occasionally and very listlessly digitized. The tariffs (apart from the Deutschlandticket) are overly complicated and suffer heavily under the common balkanization. The DB Navi…

The DB navigator app is actually decent. The one downside is it kicks you out to a website to book many international tickets, but you can still plan and track your journey delays etc. in the app.

It kicks you out to a website if you are lucky (I had this when traveling through Austria), but often it just says: "Sorry, I cannot book this for you.".

In any case you will have to start from scratch, which is in my opinion the worst UX.

It is good that the app allows to research all theoretically possible connections, but I want the info if I can practically book a connection right there in the process and not just at the end. The SNCF-Connect app shows that this is possible, and even possible for Deutsche Bahn trains.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#245

Post by postpawl »

jdietrich wrote: post #76

Providing these €49 tickets requires an annual subsidy of around €3bn, on top of already substantial subsidies for the rail industry. If we accept that it reduces carbon emissions by 6.7 million tonnes per year, then that works out to €447 per tonne. That really isn't good value - most carbon abatement methods cost well under $100 per tonne. I do recognise that modal shift towards rail may have other positive externa…

Focusing on the cost-per-tonne for carbon reduction misses the broader value of railways. They're not just about reducing emission! They facilitate daily commutes, expand job opportunities, and help drive the economy. It’s a subsidy for businesses too.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#246

Post by andrepd »

jdietrich wrote: post #76

Providing these €49 tickets requires an annual subsidy of around €3bn, on top of already substantial subsidies for the rail industry. If we accept that it reduces carbon emissions by 6.7 million tonnes per year, then that works out to €447 per tonne. That really isn't good value - most carbon abatement methods cost well under $100 per tonne. I do recognise that modal shift towards rail may have other positive externa…

How much does it cost to keep up the motor roads in Germany? Likewise, how much do the externalities of it (like pollution, and massive numbers of deaths and injuries) cost?

Without it this comparison is meaningless.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#247

Post by ClumsyPilot »

londons_explore wrote: post #106
jdietrich wrote: post #76

Providing these €49 tickets requires an annual subsidy of around €3bn, on top of already substantial subsidies for the rail industry. If we accept that it reduces carbon emissions by 6.7 million tonnes per year, then that works out to €447 per tonne. That really isn't good value - most carbon abatement methods cost well under $100 per tonne. I do recognise that modal shift towards rail may have other positive externa…

> requires an annual subsidy of around €3bn I suspect the key is to find ways to run railways cheaper. It has been a long time since railways were under severe cost competition encouraging people to look for efficiencies. I think the main one would be to find a way for railways to operate with no staff. Just like a typical road operates most of the time with no staff. That means you need to redesign everything that c…

> That means you need to redesign everything that currently uses people to not need people

Simplest redesign is running longer trains - they still need just 1 driver.

Britain’s trains are sometimes comically small (3 carriages) and overcrowded. French trains are 2-3x longer, Russia/China even more so.

Second is standardisation - all of Uks train companies run different stock and it’s ovsoleye

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#248

Post by spacebanana7 »

clhodapp wrote: post #175
spacebanana7 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calculating the subsidy associated with state maintenance of roads for private vehicles is difficult. Some basic level of signage and hazard prevention (potholes, ice etc) is necessary for emergency vehicles and other government operations. Thereafter, although there is some maintenance cost associated with the road wear from private vehicles and the additional infrastructure required for higher traffic volumes, we d…

Wouldn't the very patterns of development be different (and more amenable to rail) if the state didn't spend oodles of money building nice roads to make sprawl livable?

At a high level, urbanisation rates increased through the road building binge of the 20th century.

Perhaps those new migrants to cities would’ve chosen to stay in the countryside without roads? Worsening the economics of rail.

Or maybe they’d use their collective voting power to get more rail friendly new towns built?

I don’t think the answer is obvious.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#249

Post by rzwitserloot »

jdietrich wrote: post #76

Providing these €49 tickets requires an annual subsidy of around €3bn, on top of already substantial subsidies for the rail industry. If we accept that it reduces carbon emissions by 6.7 million tonnes per year, then that works out to €447 per tonne. That really isn't good value - most carbon abatement methods cost well under $100 per tonne. I do recognise that modal shift towards rail may have other positive externa…

The sheer amount of additional benefit means this is a gallingly reductive view of it all.

The subsidy for maintaining car infrastructure is causing _more_ co2 per euro invested, how's that fit into these calculations?

This is so useless, it sounds like propaganda.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#250

Post by Qwertious »

kristianp wrote: post #153
sadcherry wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Airtravel is also subsidised by the German tax payer. Much more than the 49 EUR ticket. No matter if you are a tourist or not. (Arguably mostly for tourists actually.)

What's the method of subsidy there? Contributing to Airbus shares?

Subsidising airports and fuel, presumably.
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