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In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

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Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#241
post #13

The command line is still king. Whenever I see new coders struggle, it usually is because they: - Don't know the context of what they are executing - Don't know about the concept of input and output On the command line, the context is obvious. You are in the context. The working dir, the environment, everything is the same for you as it is for the thing you execute via ./mything.py. Input and output are also obvious.…

  On the command line, the context is obvious
Hardly.

If you’re lucky, you might know what your current directory is.

More often than not, at any particular point, your command line is paused in the middle of some likely ad hoc multi-step process. A process with a bunch of state stored as opaque blobs of data scattered across the file system. More so exacerbated in my case as those files are likely cleverly named x, x1, x2.

Modern systems benefit from things like command history, scroll back buffers, and similar constructs that can be leveraged to help you, as the user, restore the current context. But for a very long time, many simply returned to a $ and a soulless, cold, blinking cursor callously expecting that you recall you know where you are and what you’re doing.

The tools are there to help you dig and perhaps restore the current context (current directory, latest files, etc.) but that’s a far cry from “obvious”. Lots of folks return, blow their internal call stack, and just start over when they come back from lunch (if practical).

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#242
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These days it’s easier to ask ChatGPT for the ffmpeg command line to do the thing you want, imo.

When some big shit hits the fan either with ChatGPT or internet connections, the only people able to fix systems without an internet connection will be us, the millenials. The rest will be prompty fired in the spot.

we had the same conversation when Gmail came out.

a true test for a progammer is to see what they can do on a computer without the Internet.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#243
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When some big shit hits the fan either with ChatGPT or internet connections, the only people able to fix systems without an internet connection will be us, the millenials. The rest will be prompty fired in the spot.

we had the same conversation when Gmail came out. a true test for a progammer is to see what they can do on a computer without the Internet.

- Debian/Devuan/Gnuinos users with offline DVD's ISOs mirrored under an USB drive: easy mode. Most of the docs are already there, just mount the ISO's as a loopback device and run apt-cdrom add against the mount points.

- Windows user: hell.

Ubuntu/Arch/any distro without full ofline mirrors: hell too.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#244
post #111
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I 100% agree, and your points about Chinese tools are particularly incisive. As an aside, but I think relevant and you might find it interesting: A decade or so I discovered Oberon, the last masterwork of the great genius of programming languages Niklaus "Bucky" Wirth. A complete OS, UI and compiler, in about four and a half thousand lines of code. I have it running in various forms. I introduced it to the Squeak Sma…

I know Oberon only by name, I've used (and honestly not loved it at all) some Pascal dialect back at high school, but back then was not real programming and was an introductory very bad organized course so it's hard to tell, I've encountered probably Oberon for a river navigation applications around 10 years ago but I wasn't really involved so I can't say much, I essentially do not know anything but the name, if you…

> if you have some interesting links to share I'll skim them with pleasure.

I do not advise skimming.

I've been a full-time tech journalist for 2 & a half years now (I was in the 1990s as well but the 21st century is very different) and I find the majority of readers who angrily disagree with my articles did not in fact understand the article because they tried to skim it and they didn't get the gist.

(In a previous job I was a TESOL/TEFL English teacher. "Skimming for gist" is a skill we test for, and many people don't have it and don't know they don't have it. I an not accusing you here -- but you did mention your own English in negative terms.

For example, I was on a talk at FOSDEM in February -- https://fosdem.sojourner.rocks/2024/event/3113 -- and it seemed to me that most of the audience angrily arguing about what the GPL meant and implied had not really genuinely read and understood all 6 pages of the GPL.)

Executive summary of Oberon:

https://ignorethecode.net/blog/2009/04/22/oberon/

13 page academic assessment, but very readable and accessible:

"Oberon – The Overlooked Jewel" https://dcreager.net/remarkable/Franz2000.pdf

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#245
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way has it been “dumbed down?” I use modern MacOS as a Unix software development workstation and it works great- nothing substantial has changed in 20 years other than better package managers. I suppose they did remove X11 but it’s trivial to install yourself.

I stopped using it a few years ago, but IMO it was definitely being dumbed down and not respecting users any more. Things like upgrades reseting settings that I went out of the way to change - Apple has a "we know better than you" attitude that's frustrating to work around.

Which settings? I am a long term MacOS (and Linux) user and have not noticed such problems.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#246
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way has it been “dumbed down?” I use modern MacOS as a Unix software development workstation and it works great- nothing substantial has changed in 20 years other than better package managers. I suppose they did remove X11 but it’s trivial to install yourself.

Off the top of my head: - The settings app is now positively atrocious, "because iPhone" - SIP is an absolute pox to deal with. - "Which version of Python will we invoke today" has become a fabulous game with multiple package managers in the running - AppCompat games. - Continued neglect for iTunes (which is now a TV player with a "if we must also provide music, fine" segment added - but it still thinks it should be…

Settings - I preferred the rectilinear layout, but I don't see why making it linear makes it atrocious.

If you don't want SIP, it will take you a few minutes to reboot and switch it off permanently (or perhaps until the next OS upgrade). This is really the only one in the list which has to be "overcome", and personally I think that SIP enabled by default is the right choice. Anyone who needs SIP disabled can work out how to do that quickly - but it is years since I've had a reason to do it even temporarily, so I suspect the audience for this is small.

Multiple package managers and Python: that sounds like a problem caused by running multiple third party package managers.

If you want games, x86 or console is the preferred choice. Issue for some, decidely not for others. I'd much rather have the Mx processor than better games support.

iTunes - I can't comment, I don't use it.

iCloud - perfectly possible to run without any use of iCloud, and I did for many years. I use it for sync for couple of third party apps, and it's nice to have that as an available platform. It doesn't force its way in, and the apps that I use usually support other platforms as well.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I stopped using it a few years ago, but IMO it was definitely being dumbed down and not respecting users any more. Things like upgrades reseting settings that I went out of the way to change - Apple has a "we know better than you" attitude that's frustrating to work around.

Which settings? I am a long term MacOS (and Linux) user and have not noticed such problems.

The "Allow Apps from Anywhere" setting, amongst others.

Linux works better for me, anyway.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#248
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way has it been “dumbed down?” I use modern MacOS as a Unix software development workstation and it works great- nothing substantial has changed in 20 years other than better package managers. I suppose they did remove X11 but it’s trivial to install yourself.

With each new version it has become increasingly hostile to installing new software, particularly open-source software that hasn't been "signed" by a commercial developer, throwing up huge warning windows suggesting that anyone daring to run such stuff is taking a huge risk. And many of the standard UNIX locations have become locked down making it impossible to install stuff there. It's clear that Apple would like to…

These are great features IMO, as a unix savvy 'power user.'

A system should be heavily locked down and secure by default unless you really know what you are doing and choose to manually override that.

Modern MacOS features add an incredible level of security- it won't run non-signed apps unless you know what you're doing and override it. Even signed apps can only access parts of the filesystem you approve them to. These things are not a hassle to override, and basically make it impossible for hostile software to do things that you don't want it to.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#249
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way has it been “dumbed down?” I use modern MacOS as a Unix software development workstation and it works great- nothing substantial has changed in 20 years other than better package managers. I suppose they did remove X11 but it’s trivial to install yourself.

Not GP, but usually when people talk about the "dumbing down" of macOS, they refer to new apps and GUI elements adopted from iOS. macOS as an operating system has been "completed" for about 7 years. From that point, almost all additions to it have been either focused on interoperation with the iPhone (good), or porting of entire iPhone features directly to Mac (usually very bad). Another point of view is that macOS i…

I don't see how any of that is an issue... basically you can now run iOS software which is great, and there are some interface and design elements from iOS- which frankly has a great interface, and they're improvements I like.

I agree there is some conceptual inconsistency- which I see on almost all OSs nowadays, but Windows 8 being the most egregious example, where you are mixing smartphone and traditional desktop interface elements in a confusing way.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#250
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know Oberon only by name, I've used (and honestly not loved it at all) some Pascal dialect back at high school, but back then was not real programming and was an introductory very bad organized course so it's hard to tell, I've encountered probably Oberon for a river navigation applications around 10 years ago but I wasn't really involved so I can't say much, I essentially do not know anything but the name, if you…

> if you have some interesting links to share I'll skim them with pleasure. I do not advise skimming. I've been a full-time tech journalist for 2 & a half years now (I was in the 1990s as well but the 21st century is very different) and I find the majority of readers who angrily disagree with my articles did not in fact understand the article because they tried to skim it and they didn't get the gist. (In a previous…

> I do not advise skimming

That's very right, but modern life is complicated so accurately study something demand much time, quickly see the concepts might helps and well, the concept of textual-UI is definitively not alien to me, since my desktop is EXWM, with almost all my digital life in org-mode, org-roam-managed notes, it's still very different than Oberon (or Plan 9) desktop but the textual concept and org-mode links that can execute sexps on click (a feature I use much, for instance to link specific mail/threads in notes and create interactive presentations) it's similar. The 2D "spaced" desktop concept It's something I see in the far past, SUN Looking Glass LG3D concept desktop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Looking_Glass and yes while the above help they still can't tell me what's inside the package, meaning what's behind the UI concept and the language grammar. I still miss the architecture.

However I suppose for what I've seen so far that essentially it's not really usable in real life so it's a nice to know project but stop here, like Lisp M Genera or Plan 9. Emacs at least can be used for real today. It's sad the IT industry have pushed what I call the glorification of ignorance, but more than preserving knowledge for a more civilized world I think we can't do.

So far in the last decades most of the old valid ideas get anyway accepted, for instance widget based UIs have essentially failed and are more and more substituted by WebUIs witch are read-only DocUIs or NotebookUIs witch are limited 2D CLIs, something close to a DocUI. They are mostly text-based as well. So well, maybe in 10+ years we will finally have something like an Oberon or LispM desktop, surely returned with many anti-users aspects but still offering something of the past glory, and there memories will help to keep correcting the aim and reducing the loss. Anyway until people realize the substantial importance and role of IT there is little hope for a more civilized era...

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