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Notes on Tajikistan

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Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#241

Post by cess11 »

shakow wrote: post #105
ashilfarahmand wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP visited about 15 years ago so if you are hinting at the more recent event, it doesn't sound relevant. And if it is not that, I'm not sure what you are hinting at.

> I'm not sure what you are hinting at. Probably the various ethnic cleansings that happened in the *stans at the fall of the USSR, where most more western ethnicities (Russians, Ukrainians, Belarussians, Armenians, ...) were at best swiftly & firmly reconducted to the nearest airport, and at worst killed on the spot.

It's best understood against the backdrop of a very long series of colonial endeavours. The circassian genocide is well documented.

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#242

Post by OJFord »

CPLX wrote: post #236
rvense wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There has been, as far as I know, one single case of tourists being attacked (and killed) by militant Islamists, which happened a few years ago. So statistically it's probably safer than a lot of places. There is significant resistance to the regime under the surface, but everything is still held together by an aging, kleptocratic authoritarian. So in some sense it's a volatile place, and the situation could obviousl…

> There has been, as far as I know, one single case of tourists being attacked (and killed) by militant Islamists Reading this made me have to ponder the interesting fact that this is several thousand less than the number of people killed by militant Islamists in the city I live in (New York) since I moved here.

I think it's a complicated comparison to make though, you could well be more of a target as a tourist in Tajikistan than as one of the masses in NYC, so the incidence is low but your chances of being involved in a given incident, etc.

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#243

Post by sunaookami »

anal_reactor wrote: post #238
generic92034 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being filthy rich in a rich country, perhaps? :)

No because in a rich country you need to adhere to laws and regulations while in a poor country you can just pay bribes and do what you want

That still holds true in rich countries...

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#244

Post by baybal2 »

alephnerd wrote: post #224
ffgjgf1 wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> allowing civil society and institutions to form To be fair if they tried that Islamists would have just taken over. Those things don’t tend to just form on their own when you let people do whatever they want without supervision (you need very specific conditions). The most effective path for countries in similar positions is probably balanced authoritarianism + focus on education and economic growth and then starti…

Living standards (based on HDI, life expectancy, literacy rate, and other development indicators) in Tajikistan are still approximately at the same level as they were when Tajikistan was the poorest member of the Soviet Union 30 years ago. Stagnant living standards over 30 years and repression is all Rahmon has to show. This is why radicalism grows. If Rahmon raised living standards similar to peers like Uzbekistan (…

[dead]

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#245

Post by sergeykish »

holoduke wrote: post #71
jajko wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia has no allies. Every single 'compatible' nation ran the hell away from them as soon as it become marginally possible in late 80s, and in typical russian victim fashion west and US specifically is to blame. Just look at what they are doing to their supposed brothers in Ukraine, for one old man's greed and twisted view on reality and his legacy, 0 other reasons. This is how they treat everybody, including other…

[flagged]

February 2014 Moscow invaded Ukraine, occupied Crimea, "referendum" under occupation month later.

12.04.2014 Moscow occupied Sloviansk, started war on east Ukraine, "referendum" under occupation month later. 17.07.2014 MH17 shot down by Moscow Buk.

February 2022 Moscow occupied Kherson, "referendum" under occupation half a year later, faked 87% "support".

Ukraine was neutral by constitution before Moscow invaded in 2014, majority of Ukrainians were against joining NATO, many favored economic ties with Moscow, many schools and universities performed education on Moscow language. Moscow violated Friendship Treaty (2004), Ukraine borders it recognized, Budapest memorandum (1994). How exactly occupation, annexation of friendly country is "complex subject"?

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#246

Post by dvdkon »

thriftwy wrote: post #187
dvdkon wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly many parts of the world aren't too big on democracy and self-determination, but from my point of view any military operation not sanctioned by the target region's people or government counts as an invasion. Maybe that's not how all the people involved saw it, but we see, judge, and name events through the lens of our own values.

> any military operation not sanctioned by the target region's people or government counts as an invasion It does not give one an excuse to skip the whole history of the region and start it where it fits them. I wonder if their values include skipping uncomfortable trivia or highlighting it when appropriate. With regards to values, the legitimacy of a 3 years old government is in deep doubt. The values you've mention…

If you only care about the current citizens'/government's opinion, you actually can ignore history leading up to that point. Geopolitics is complicated, however, and I think most people would bring more nuance to any moral judgment. What if a large portion of the previous population was killed/driven out, for instance? What if the citizens are subjected to "brainwashing"?

I do have to disagree on the notion that a government should have a historical or traditional basis to be legitimate. In my eyes it needs foremost the support of its "subjects". In reality, different factors make a stable government, but legitimacy is ultimately a value judgment.

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#247

Post by ChuffedToBits »

babi_ wrote: post #4

i had the opportunity to travel to central asia last summer for a couple weeks (both uzbekistan and tajikistan, briefly). was really a fascinating trip to a part of the world that i barely knew anything about! for those who are curious about traveling in central asia in general, there is a great travel blog of sorts called caravanistan -> https://caravanistan.com/forum/ the main website is useful for travel logistics…

I found their map of border crossings in Central Asia the best source for current and accurate information and very helpful as a shared Google Maps map.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1Ml8xrhk9Jwr00_Gdcc...

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#248

Post by yieldcrv »

anal_reactor wrote: post #238
generic92034 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being filthy rich in a rich country, perhaps? :)

No because in a rich country you need to adhere to laws and regulations while in a poor country you can just pay bribes and do what you want

In rich countries the things you want to do are already legal, or are in the rich country next door

but worse case for violent criminal things, there isn't a functional difference between a campaign donation to the district attorney in a wealthy nation or a couple bucks to a police officer in your face in a poor country

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#249

Post by danpalmer »

specproc wrote: post #240

I did some work in Tajikistan a while back. Really good fun with some great people. It was also the most vertically integrated place I've ever encountered. I've worked in a lot of places outside of EU/US and it's the only one where I've felt you could stick most people on the country on an organigram.

Can you give some examples of the vertical integration? Perhaps some of the good and bad aspects of it?

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#250

Post by cpursley »

cess11 wrote: post #241
shakow wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure what you are hinting at. Probably the various ethnic cleansings that happened in the *stans at the fall of the USSR, where most more western ethnicities (Russians, Ukrainians, Belarussians, Armenians, ...) were at best swiftly & firmly reconducted to the nearest airport, and at worst killed on the spot.

It's best understood against the backdrop of a very long series of colonial endeavours. The circassian genocide is well documented.

Circassian genocide was especially nasty, but ancient history (and somewhat inline with America's genocidal colonial conquests West). And not that it justifies the genocide, the Circassians were big slavers of Slavs (especially young girls). Also some of the biggest bastards on the Russian side were actually ethnic German.

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigory_Zass

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_slave_trade#Circassi...

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