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EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

patrick-breyer.de

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Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#241

Post by zemnl »

kvgr wrote: post #157
pelorat wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing you mentioned has anything to do with socialism.

Depends on the definition of socialism. For me the flow through retirement is socialist. The healthcare that forces people to pay money to non functioning system based on their income is socialist.

> The healthcare that forces people to pay money to non functioning system based on their income is socialist.

Non functioning? All EU countries with public healthcare score better than the US in the healthcare rankings (and life expectancy), by a good measure. And some of them are the best in the world. This [1] is just one source, you can find multiple ones with the same conclusion.

[1] https://www.internationalinsurance.com/health/systems/

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#242

Post by growse »

bux93 wrote: post #224
constantcrying wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue of chat control is also orthogonal to it's "democracy". It is neither democratic nor anti-democratic. It obviously in no way invalidates people's rights to determine their government, labeling arbitrary issues as "anti-democratic" just because you don't like them is very unhelpful.

Nonsense. Chat control is prior constraint of speech. You can't argue that automated content filters are not censorship. You can agree with the ends (or what content is filtered, and even the governance), but the means themselves are thoroughly anti-democratic. And rife for abuse.

If this issue got put to a straight referendum, and won >80% of the vote, would it then be democratic?

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#243

Post by bux93 »

growse wrote: post #242
bux93 wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. Chat control is prior constraint of speech. You can't argue that automated content filters are not censorship. You can agree with the ends (or what content is filtered, and even the governance), but the means themselves are thoroughly anti-democratic. And rife for abuse.

If this issue got put to a straight referendum, and won >80% of the vote, would it then be democratic?

See my earlier comment.

This is simple stuff.

Are you guys being disingenuous?

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#244

Post by amarcheschi »

shiroiushi wrote: post #136
zaik wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I self-host a standard XMPP server for my family. Let's see how long it takes before this is illegal too.

You actually get them to use it? That's the problem with most of these ideas: sure, you can just roll your own encryption, chat program, etc., but getting the people in your life to use it is another matter. My mom has enough trouble using the popular and ubiquitous chat app we communicate through; something custom is going to be beyond her.

Going custom is beyond the majority of people, of course pedophiles will still be able to avoid being spied on, while the everyday Joe won't spend time to. I even doubt everyday Joe will know about this

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#245

Post by aniviacat »

sph wrote: post #138
egorfine wrote: post #18

They won't stop, won't they.

The joys of representative democracy. The people are told they are free, but it's the oligarchy in their ivory tower that decide for you. Every few years you get told you can vote for the next liar to do their bidding in your name, and we, the people, keep the circus alive by telling each other "your vote counts! It's your fault if they're all thieves!" Government won't stop monitoring each and every citizen, and cit…

I don't think this discussion is happening against people's wishes.

I think people outside of tech (99% of people) are far more likely to support such a law.

You may argue that this is due to them not being sufficiently informed, but that's not to be blamed on representative democracy.

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#246

Post by Semaphor »

vidarh wrote: post #237
Semaphor wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird, I wonder if that’s the south? Up here in Lübeck, even the small stores now almost always accept everything thanks to the small SumUp terminals.

Are you sure it's not just that your card has both EC and Visa Electron/Mastercard Meastro or similar, and that it's the EC part they accept? It's been a few years since I've been to Germany, but for comparison, in Norway - while it's nearly unheard of now - you also used to be able to find places that'd take "BankAxept" bank cards, which would be pretty much every domestic debit card, and is similar to EC Karten, bu…

Yes, I am, N26 only gives you a Maestro card if you pay extra, and even that (which I don’t have) doesn’t support girocard. The one I have is MC only.

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#247

Post by sofixa »

Vt71fcAqt7 wrote: post #168
sofixa wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you take right and cut out russian support, keep taxes and less money distribution, promote personal tesponsibility you are still extreme right. That describes to a T the French party "Les Republicains", and nobody calls them far right. So no, you need the extremist "migrants bad" with zero nuance, heavy doses of populism with no foundation, promises of more money distribution (in France, the Front National is p…

Why is "migrants bad" with zero nuance extremist?

Because it's little more than xenophobia, which has always been extremist.

You don't want people with radically different value systems being allowed to migrate without making efforts to integrate themselves? Sure, say so. That's a reasonable position that can be debated. Maybe you'd be OK with asylum seekers fleeing for their lives, maybe not, to be discussed.

You don't want anyone different to come to the country? That's xenophobia, and considering the demographic challenges facing the EU, stupid. And of course the funny thing is that most of the people espousing those extremist views and voting for the "migrants bad" parties are living in the countryside where there are practically no migratns and everyone knows everyone else. Cities, where those migrants (be they Afghanis or Ukrainians who ran for their lives, Sudanese looking for a better life) are actually concentrated, are markedly pro-much more open to migrants parties.

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#248

Post by aniviacat »

Semaphor wrote: post #183
gambiting wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>An even smaller minority, especially for restaurants, slightly larger for non-chain fast food places that probably also cheat on taxes. Personal anecdote, but I've been travelling through Germany this winter and outside of motorway petrol stations and big supermarkets pretty much no one would accept my Visa/MasterCard cards - "EC Karten" only everywhere. We went to a big restaurant which I assumed would be ok becau…

Weird, I wonder if that’s the south? Up here in Lübeck, even the small stores now almost always accept everything thanks to the small SumUp terminals.

I live in the northern half of Germany and not even the postal office near me accepts Visa. (Let alone the many non-chain shops around me.)

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#249

Post by pimterry »

thefz wrote: post #6

https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/council-to-greenlight-chat-... Let your voice be heard! Contact your representatives (bottom of the page)!

If you're in Spain, you can contact Spain's permanent representation in the EU here: https://es-ue.org/contactar/

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#250

Post by sph »

aniviacat wrote: post #245
sph wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The joys of representative democracy. The people are told they are free, but it's the oligarchy in their ivory tower that decide for you. Every few years you get told you can vote for the next liar to do their bidding in your name, and we, the people, keep the circus alive by telling each other "your vote counts! It's your fault if they're all thieves!" Government won't stop monitoring each and every citizen, and cit…

I don't think this discussion is happening against people's wishes. I think people outside of tech (99% of people) are far more likely to support such a law. You may argue that this is due to them not being sufficiently informed, but that's not to be blamed on representative democracy.

Are you saying that most people are likely to support this, or that people actually demanded it?

No one asked for this law, but you can convince the populace a posteriori that this is good for them, certainly. It's all part of the game.

The fact that the hoi polloi can be easily persuaded in any direction is not a reason for the people in power to do whatever the f they want with our rights, hiding beneath the banner of democracy.

Also, whoever says that we, the nerds, should do more to educate the masses is disingenuous when the people in power have massive reach. I can go rant on a blog about what this means for our privacy, while the politician goes on a TV show and on mass media campaigns to claim that this law is to save the children from the baddies.

Call me a silly idealist, but representative democracy is a bloody scam.

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