Are animals conscious? New research • Hacker News Board

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#241

Post by sdenton4 » Tue, Jun 18, 2024, 5:16 AM UTC

cupcakecommons wrote: post #201

taneq wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? You can absolutely have long in-depth discussions with a blackout drunk person about their current experiences. Are you claiming there’s some level of inebriation where you become a p-zombie? Of course, there’s also ’incoherently drunk’ which is getting closer to that.

I think there are levels of inebriation disable your ability to contextualize sensory experience within a self. I think it basically amounts to becoming a p-zombie with some caveats.

I think I'll title my memoir: "Drunk people are p-zombies, and other facts I learned on the Internet."

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#242

Post by defrost » Tue, Jun 18, 2024, 5:25 AM UTC

maxbond wrote: post #218

lolinder wrote: post #66

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

I think there is also a misguided razor that people who self identify as rationalists often apply, which goes, "the most cynical or disenchanted answer is likely the correct one." An overcorrection to superstition, perhaps. I personally did this, and one of the symptoms was being overly skeptical of animal consciousness. People would tell me this dog was smart or that it was feeling a certain way, and I dismissed it,…

> I was impressed because I wouldn't have noticed those books being out of place.

Orthogonal to any argument about conciousness in cats, the most probable explanation is your cat was aware of your scent freshly attached to a book that previously didn't carry it.

In my experience cats are acutely aware of scents, particularly known and especially unknown scents in new places.

Had you been an unknown cat the chances are extremely high your cat would have urinated on your book.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#243

Post by bowsamic » Tue, Jun 18, 2024, 5:27 AM UTC

slibhb wrote: post #120

lolinder wrote: post #66

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

> The only reason why animal consciousness has been controversial historically is a religious one—the Bible has typically been read as placing humanity in a category of its own. And yet we see countless secular scientists clinging to that perspective when even a cursory glance at the evidence and a basic application of Occam's razor would suggest the opposite. It's not just the Bible. It's virtually every religion an…

Animals are definitely fully conscious in Buddhism

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#244

Post by bowsamic » Tue, Jun 18, 2024, 5:33 AM UTC

maxbond wrote: post #224

carlosjobim wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if there was no Bible, it is clear as crystal to anybody who thinks about it that humans are in a category of our own. Any animal that could do even a thousandth of what people are capable of would be the most extraordinary animal. It is also crystal clear that animals have consciousness. A person would have to be without much consciousness themselves to think otherwise, in my opinion.

Have you, as an adult, had a relationship with an animal, like a cat or a dog? I was thinking about this once, why I believe my cat was conscious and was a person. I came to the conclusion that the relationship was a sort of epistemology, and that I knew my cat was a person, had a personality, and loved me because I understood the relationship. When my cat was passing, all they wanted to do was spend time with me. I…

People swear they have emotional relationships with their pet lizards, who totally lack the part of the brain that can feel emotions…

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#245

Post by vasilipupkin » Tue, Jun 18, 2024, 5:40 AM UTC

lolinder wrote: post #66

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

The way you are phrasing your disagreement with prevailing consensus is just semantics. Ok, let’s say animals are not 0% conscious, let’s say a certain animal is 24% conscious. It’s reasonable to say that, in comparison to a human, this animal is not conscious. Clearly, my cat exhibits some awareness of what’s going on, it’s not totally mindless. But to call it conscious in the way that we apply this term to humans is a stretch.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#246

Post by stoperaticless » Tue, Jun 18, 2024, 5:44 AM UTC

vasilipupkin wrote: post #245

lolinder wrote: post #66

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

The way you are phrasing your disagreement with prevailing consensus is just semantics. Ok, let’s say animals are not 0% conscious, let’s say a certain animal is 24% conscious. It’s reasonable to say that, in comparison to a human, this animal is not conscious. Clearly, my cat exhibits some awareness of what’s going on, it’s not totally mindless. But to call it conscious in the way that we apply this term to humans i…

I gather that there is no simple definition of concious, and it mostly is “same as humans”.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#247

Post by stoperaticless » Tue, Jun 18, 2024, 5:53 AM UTC

slowmovintarget wrote: post #137

lolinder wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I reject panpsychism as going against common sense; I think there probably are very simple (read: small) animals that aren't conscious. Yes, I can definitely agree with this. I'm more reacting to the idea that it's somehow an unresolved scientific question whether dogs and cats and other mammals have emotions. There isn't a sufficiently large difference in neurology between humans and other mammals for me to believ…

Dogs definitely have Theory of Mind. There was a study done that placed a treat in a room where the dog was instructed not to eat it. A handler was in the room with the dog. When the lights were turned out, the dogs would eat the treat, because they knew that the human couldn't see in the dark.

But sadly they dont have theory of rope.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#248

Post by diffxx » Tue, Jun 18, 2024, 5:53 AM UTC

vasilipupkin wrote: post #245

lolinder wrote: post #66

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

The way you are phrasing your disagreement with prevailing consensus is just semantics. Ok, let’s say animals are not 0% conscious, let’s say a certain animal is 24% conscious. It’s reasonable to say that, in comparison to a human, this animal is not conscious. Clearly, my cat exhibits some awareness of what’s going on, it’s not totally mindless. But to call it conscious in the way that we apply this term to humans i…

Do you believe that all humans possess equal amounts of consciousness?

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#249

Post by maxbond » Tue, Jun 18, 2024, 5:53 AM UTC

bowsamic wrote: post #244

maxbond wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you, as an adult, had a relationship with an animal, like a cat or a dog? I was thinking about this once, why I believe my cat was conscious and was a person. I came to the conclusion that the relationship was a sort of epistemology, and that I knew my cat was a person, had a personality, and loved me because I understood the relationship. When my cat was passing, all they wanted to do was spend time with me. I…

People swear they have emotional relationships with their pet lizards, who totally lack the part of the brain that can feel emotions…

Zhuangzi: See how the minnows come out and dart around as they please! That is what fish enjoy!

Huizi: You're not a fish - how do you know what fish enjoy?

Zhuangzi: You're not I, so how do you know that I don't know what fish enjoy?

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#250

Post by moi2388 » Tue, Jun 18, 2024, 5:54 AM UTC

I’ve never understood these questions. “Are animals conscious?”

Well, could you give me the definition of consciousness? No you can’t. So now you’re asking me both to define it and show if animals have it or not.

Are animals aware of their surroundings? Yes. Are animals showing the behavioural signs of pain when you hurt them? Yes. Can animals direct attention? Yes. Can animals remember? Yes. Can animals learn? Yes. Are animals self-aware? Some of them, some only sometimes, some not.

To think of consciousness as a dichotomy instead of a spectrum is baffling to me. As is thinking of consciousness as being a single, indivisible thing.