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If English was written like Chinese (1999)

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241–250 of 312 posts

Re: If English was written like Chinese (1999)

#241
post #33

> I've attempted in this sketch to lay out, by analogy, the nature and structure of the Chinese writing system. All of the concepts apply Do they? I think there is one section that has nothing whatsoever to do with how Chinese works, namely "Inflections". Chinese does not have them, at all. I guess the author felt compelled to at least give a token acknowledgement to the concept, even while it was irrelevant to what…

Interestingly Chinese did have things like this at the time the writing system formed, and they simply weren't written. You can see remnants of the old morphological system today in characters that alternate in tone.

For example there used to be a suffix -s that turned a verb into a noun. During the Han Dynasty this turned into -h, and then later turned into the falling/departing/fourth tone. Hence 教 jiāo is the verb "to teach", from Old Chinese *kraw, and 教 jiào is the noun "teaching" from Old Chinese *kraws.

Re: If English was written like Chinese (1999)

#242
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know it's not English or any Western entity that has grouped the Chinese languages together as one, but the Chinese government, for political reasons. Western linguists recognize the variants of "Chinese" as different languages.

They're written the same, and have basically the same grammar. The characters have hugely different readings, but people can communicate easily in writing. You can call that different languages, but that's certainly a different kind of different than people would expect when you say different. If there were a version of English where all of the letters designated completely different sounds, but was written exactly t…

> The wide variance in the pronunciation of words even in English is also due to our dogshit orthography (largely imposed by the French), which often fails to give a decent hint for how to say something.

Others have already corrected your other misunderstandings, but this is also false. Spanish has at least as much variance in pronunciation as English and has an orthography that is extremely regular. Brazilian Portuguese and Portugal Portuguese likewise have the same, highly regular orthography and are barely mutually intelligible.

To the best of my knowledge you actually have the causality mostly reversed: English's orthography is useless largely because the pronunciation changed but the spelling didn't, and English has a variety of pronunciations because the pronunciations changed differently in different regions. English has a messier orthography than other languages because of our complicated history of borrowing words, but the evidence shows that even people who start with a highly consistent orthography don't use it to keep their pronunciation static and shared.

Re: If English was written like Chinese (1999)

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've always learned that there are sound components and meaning components The Shuowen indeed already mentions sounds. But the fact that there are sound components isn't contradictory with them being also semantic. > I don't think we need to look too much about what ancient scholars thought about characters Let's say that I enjoy the study of ancient thought processes, and that some of it seems to be recorded in et…

>But the fact that there are sound components isn't contradictory with them being also semantic No, I mean only sound, not semantic. >Perhaps ancient Greeks didn't had modern means (e.g. peer-reviewed papers, social "sciences"), but they nevertheless captured the jest of it, while we're essentially not. You're making a very unfair comparaison, the average ancient Greek did know even less about politics than we did. I…

> No, I mean only sound, not semantic.

But that's my point regarding the paper mentioned above: I have the impression that this viewpoint doesn't match with the way old beards used the language:

> In other words in each of these quotations, the author uses the graphic structure of a character to represent a key notion in the discursive reasoning to support or confirm a reality or a fact. The meaning of the character can be systematically related to the meaning of the graphic components

> [...]

> According to these texts, characters are analysed into pure semantic components: “west” and “rice” for “grain”; “cereal,” “entering” “rice” for “broomcorn millet”; “eight” and “ten” for “tree,” and the choice of the components is essentially explained in terms of the Yin/Yang and Five Elements theories.

Of course, I am well aware of the modern viewpoint, which disregards such systematic semantic interpretations, but I am wondering whether I understand the paper correctly: « were really characters components always understood semantically in the past? »

And I am cautiously wondering about it, precisely because all Chinese speakers I've talked to shrugs the idea off (« am I missing something? »).

> You're making a very unfair comparaison

Alright, but we were talking about ancient scholars, it seems fair to compare them to modern scholars. Let me try to rephrase myself. My point was multiple:

(1) ancient scholars were trained to do science, just not the way we do

(2) not being "trained to do science" in the modern sense isn't sufficient to disregard their viewpoint;

(2') the converse is also true: being "trained to do science" in the modern sense isn't sufficient to validate a viewpoint. Example: many trained scientists or engineers will hold democracy in high-esteem despite the previous "research" & history.

That's to say, I believe it's well worth studying their viewpoints, despite the fact that they "weren't trained to do science," as commonly understood today.

Re: If English was written like Chinese (1999)

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The analogy to numerals is great to get a western-language speaker to grok the basic mechanism by which a symbol can be unrelated to a sound, reused across completely different languages, and even have different ‘readings’ in different contexts (2, 2nd, 12, 1/2…)

The use of 2nd is a better example of the limitations of this system. The reality of written Standard Chinese is that you'd use "2nd" to write both "second", but also "deuxieme", instead of writing "2eme".

Right, that case is a little more useful to analogize the way Japanese uses kanji (Han characters) with local Japanese inflections (okurigana) to adapt the Chinese writing system to their local inflected language. We write the word ‘second’ using the Arabic symbol that connotes the concept of ‘two’, followed by an irregular English inflection to make it ordinal. Is ‘seco’ a ‘reading’ of the 2 symbol? Kinda sorta?

Also helps you appreciate that Japan is not completely insane for having seemingly completely unrelated number words for different contexts, even though they write them with the same numeral. Turns out, so do many western languages (although generally only for ordinal/cardinal, not for the endless range of counters Japanese has)

The fact that as a native English speaker this seems like not how you actually read or write numerals at all - no, of course 3 doesn’t ’read’ as ‘thi(r)’ - also suggests that there is a less mechanistic way to understand the relationships between hanzi and words than learners often try to apply (we want to find the ‘rules’ that must underpin these things), and that the way native speakers of Mandarin, Cantonese or Japanese think of the relationship between these symbols and the words they are writing is much more organic - and that’s okay.

Re: If English was written like Chinese (1999)

#246
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it also shows that you don't need logograms. We don't have a distinct symbol for 35 just because English and French pronounce it differently.

Unlike with numbers, day to day language needs to convey a larger variety of concepts hence why logograms are still needed. Much like how more advanced math requires different symbols and operators that are akin to mathematical logograms to convey additional concepts beyond the fundamental quantities of 0 to 9. Alphabets are often linked to sound, and it would be a tremendous challenge to create an "alphabet" analogu…

[deleted]

Re: If English was written like Chinese (1999)

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One doesn't use Kanji anymore, and no one seems to struggle to read it? Chinese/Japanese has a level of written mutual intelligibility. Korean lost it. > Japanese on the other hand I have seen even natives struggle to read. It's like a native English speaker encountering new vocabulary. Happens quite often. > Heck even the existence of furigana in novels is an admission of this. I'd agree that manga use of furigana…

Sometimes furigana can be used artistically,sure, but that's the exception to the rule and it's by and large a reading aide in the vast majority of cases, and the inclusion of it in novels aimed at adults indicates that without it the author expects a certain percentage of readers may struggle with how to read the Kanji otherwise. Why does this tool in the language need to exist? The answer cannot be because Kanji ma…

> Why does this tool in the language need to exist? The answer cannot be because Kanji make things easier to read, else you wouldn't need tools to help you read Kanji

This just isn't true. Even most native JP speakers agree that kanji are oppressively hard to learn and remember, so if it were feasible to get by with kana alone, then at least some native speakers would do it in some contexts. But outside of language learning it's virtually never done, and there's a reason for that.

Also, I think you're overlooking that Chinese and Korean have a lot more vowels/tones to work with than Japanese. There are a lot of Chinese-derived compound words that are homophones in Japanese but not elsewhere.

Re: If English was written like Chinese (1999)

#248
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a common claim. But... I haven't seen any credible claims of how Chinese was actually "westernized" aside of Chinese writers seemingly randomly pointing fingers and blaming European influence for a change of style initiated by the younger generation. Even your example shouldn't convince anyone, since in English we don't say "do improvement", and generally English doesn't overuse "do " much. I've read an attem…

Yup, 余光中 is one of such authors who urge people to write authentic instead of "westernized" Chinese. I wouldn't call it "blame", though. Just like in English, there's certain standard on good writing. In Chinese, 白话文 is really the way to go. That's why among the authors in the May 4th movement, 钱钟书´s modern Chinese is just so much more pleasant to read than Lu Xun's. If you don't believe me, try reading his translati…

I maintain that "blame" is the right word. He doesn't establish any real casual connections of poor Chinese writing to European linguistic influence, so it seems to me that he is just pointing fingers at some convenient villain (European/English influence) instead of admitting that maybe people are just bad at writing.

Or it occurred at a time when literacy rates massively increased, and thus there was some vulgarization of the language to some extent.

I think he explains how to write better Chinese pretty well, I just don't think pointing fingers at other languages is helpful especially if it isn't grounded in fact or evidence.

Re: If English was written like Chinese (1999)

#249

can someone explain the linguistic logic to me like I'm five? I've read it through twice and I don't understand how the connection is made between the characters and the english language?

It's an imagining of how the principles used to construct Chinese characters could be applied to English. The author names these hypothetical English characters yingzi, after hanzi.

Re: If English was written like Chinese (1999)

#250

The article does a decent job of explaining of how Chinese characters work, but it falls short of explaining why. The reason why Chinese continues to use a logographic writing system is due to both tradition and practicality. English has grossly grouped together Chinese as one unified language, when in actuality it is not. In fact, many "dialects" are mutually unintelligible--one speaker cannot understand another spe…

Pronouncing two identical sequences of characters differently depending on dialect doesn't appear to be a problem in English.

The dialects of English (such as Scots) most certainly do not spell words the same as a general rule. The fact that there are slight pronunciation differences between different accents of standard English is not at all the same as writing entirely different words with the same sequence of characters.

For example, the word for "enemy" in Mandarin is "dírén", in Cantonese it is "dik6 jan4", in Shanghainese it is "dih nyin", and in Hakka it is "tit5 ngin11" (including different tone markers, I'm taking these translations from different sites). All of them would write it as "敵人". These words are far more different though than the difference in how an American and Englishman would pronounce "four".

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