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Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

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Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#241

Post by stavros »

Aromasin wrote: post #237
486sx33 wrote: post #231

“ mimic doctor’s notes and reduce the amount of paperwork a physician would have to manually compile.” So there is AI making up doctors notes ? That’s extremely contentious. In Ontario doctors are paid per patient per year and then also per visit / procedure. This doctor is just outsourcing her doctor work that taxpayers are footing the bill for - to AI. This is wrong in so many ways. What a lazy practitioner!

Did we read different articles? Did you just fixate on that line and not read the rest? She was the one doing the examination and verbalising her concerns. The AI disseminated that information the doctor provided and reformatted it into bureaucratic prose just like doctors scribes have been doing for the last few centuries. I don't see the issue here in the slightest. None of the "doctoring" has been outsourced, just…

In my line of work (healthcare in the UK), an AI system that would change what a human writes in any way would be considered a medical device, and would require an absolute ton of paperwork to certify. In the case of LLMs, I don't know if certification would even be possible, because you have to show that your system didn't change the intent of the human, which is impossible to do with LLMs.

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#242

Post by dmix »

stavros wrote: post #241
Aromasin wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did we read different articles? Did you just fixate on that line and not read the rest? She was the one doing the examination and verbalising her concerns. The AI disseminated that information the doctor provided and reformatted it into bureaucratic prose just like doctors scribes have been doing for the last few centuries. I don't see the issue here in the slightest. None of the "doctoring" has been outsourced, just…

In my line of work (healthcare in the UK), an AI system that would change what a human writes in any way would be considered a medical device, and would require an absolute ton of paperwork to certify. In the case of LLMs, I don't know if certification would even be possible, because you have to show that your system didn't change the intent of the human, which is impossible to do with LLMs.

Its mostly translating dictation and recordings. The doctors are still liable if it's wrong so there's plenty of incentive to simply read the output, which is still a major productivity improvement over writing+reading.

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#243

Post by dmix »

janandonly wrote: post #238

Spending 25% of your working hours on “paperwork” sounds about correct for just about everybody who’s had a desk job the last 100 years. I’m not saying it’s a good thing and I’m not saying I’m happy about it. Just that it is so, not just for the medical profession. So what’s the fuss?

> I’m not saying it’s a good thing and I’m not saying I’m happy about it.

> Just that it is so,

> So what’s the fuss?

This sort of attitude would make the world never progress. The fuss is a highly trained specialist who is constantly in short supply is spending a quarter of their time doing work not entirely connected with their speciality. In an efficient system there should be a division of labour to another lower paid specialist, a scribe, but medical systems can't afford that for every single doctor, especially tax payer supported ones.

Automating that secondary role for every doctor benefits all of us if it means we give doctors more time.

Not to mention the documentation itself is almost always at least 25% excessive and duplicative, and computers+good UIs help eliminate that.

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#244

Post by dmix »

classichasclass wrote: post #205

Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but to this day I don't take notes on the computer when I'm in the room with a patient. I might take a couple notes, but otherwise I do it between patients or after hours. It seems discourteous to me otherwise. That said, I have a prolonged charting period after every clinic. It's not sustainable in daily practice (I don't see patients every day).

What the economics of getting a scribe?

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#245

Post by brokencode »

stavros wrote: post #241
Aromasin wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did we read different articles? Did you just fixate on that line and not read the rest? She was the one doing the examination and verbalising her concerns. The AI disseminated that information the doctor provided and reformatted it into bureaucratic prose just like doctors scribes have been doing for the last few centuries. I don't see the issue here in the slightest. None of the "doctoring" has been outsourced, just…

In my line of work (healthcare in the UK), an AI system that would change what a human writes in any way would be considered a medical device, and would require an absolute ton of paperwork to certify. In the case of LLMs, I don't know if certification would even be possible, because you have to show that your system didn't change the intent of the human, which is impossible to do with LLMs.

Sure, if the LLM note were filed straight into the chart without review, it’d be pretty unsafe.

But these systems are meant to generate a draft note that the doctor still has to review, edit, and sign. At the end of the day, it’s still up to the doctor to ensure the note is correct.

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#246

Post by randomdata »

forgetfreeman wrote: post #235
randomdata wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going directly to the source did not provide a favourable answer. Did you somehow miss reading the thread before you replied?

K so given a situation where no credible information is available on the net a system that synthesizes information taken from the net is going to produce credible information through what mechanism exactly?

Why not just read the thread before replying?

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#247

Post by layer8 »

vertis wrote: post #101

Obviously, Medical and privacy issues in this story that make this case more complex, but anyone on HN not looking into ways that AI can streamline their lives and jobs at this point is doing themselves a disservice. Yes, there are limitations. Yes, there are times when it goes down the wrong path or actually makes things worse, but those are getting fewer and further between. Things like Otter, Aider, Cursor, GPT Vi…

Not possible for work due to NDAs, not desirable outside work for similar reasons. AI home appliances that aren’t cloud-based seem a long way off.

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#249

Post by hansvm »

There is a 0% chance they aren't slurping up that data to store forever (and "improve their core offerings" or whatever the privacy policy says). Anyone want to take bets on whether the first breach is:

(1) A vindictive employee tracks down their ex's information

(2) The raw database is breached and wholesaled

(3) Somebody embeds the AI's RAG data in HTML for anyone to read

(4) The training job's Spark admin portal lives on an ngrok'd laptop for anyone to siphon

(5) The mandatory Facebook "like button" on every government website is set up to scan every query

(6) They don't "sell personal data", but if you don't opt out (and usually even if you do) a thousand adtech companies have paid to be affiliates to "assist in normal day-to-day operations", where their only "assistance" is downloading your personal data to serve you ads for hemorrhoid-friendly buttplugs or non-magnetic magnetic healing crystals that don't interfere with your pacemaker or whatever

(7) Other (please comment)

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#250

Post by twotwotwo2 »

resource_waste wrote: post #167
Pigalowda wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think you’ll be able to recruit more people into medicine by reducing compensation, keeping education costs the same, and also keeping medicolegal liability on the physician? Residency as “profit” is a stretch. You tread water for 5 years. If you would like those apprenticeship years to go unpaid then I’m not sure how it increases the number of people who want to go into medicine.

>You think you’ll be able to recruit more people into medicine by reducing compensation You don't need to recruit more, there is an abundant supply of people who want it. >Residency as “profit” is a stretch. Physicians are funny, a fantastic wage for the lower-middle class is considered 'treading water'. And its for education. Something every other degree pays for. >I’m not sure how it increases the number of people…

Residents should absolutely be paid. Years of often times reaching 80 hours/week, treating patients, performing procedures, writing notes - all is valuable labor.

It is like saying we won't pay you for the first several years of your first dev job because it is primarily a ramp up / educational period.

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