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H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

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Re: H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

#241

Post by bluGill »

ceejayoz wrote: post #237
bluGill wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it should be controversial. Of course there are lots of different ways to do things, but the old ways are not always better. There is a lot of researching into how to raise cows, and as romantic as the open range sounds, the reality isn't all the great for cows either. (little water at times, temperatures that are not comfortable)

> Maybe it should be controversial. Why should "huffing aerosolized pathogenic virus/bacteria in an enclosed space can be bad for you" be controversial?

the bictures shown were not an enclosed space. If we grant an enclosed space then we can also apply air filters.

Re: H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

#242

Post by mattmaroon »

themk wrote: post #240
mattmaroon wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could: sure. Will: no. But even if we did, it would still be factory farming (though of course with fewer outbreaks and antibiotic resistance) with other things that people would find problematic for plenty of equally valid reasons. Also if anything, obesity would skyrocket. Meat isn’t the big cause of that, carbs are, and if you cut out meat you get more carbs. Most people gain weight when they go vegetarian.

This is a ridiculous claim. Vegans and vegetarians on average have lower BMI. Most diet intervention studies demonstrate a drop in BMI on vegetarian or vegan diets. Sure, avoid the highly refined carbs, like white flour and sugar, but substituting dairy and meat for nuts and legumes is going to only be an improvement for your health and the health of the planet.

That’s not contradictory with what I said. I said that when people switch they gain weight.

Vegans and vegetarians are more health conscious than non-vegans and vegetarians so you can’t compare them like that. It’s like when they said that Diet Coke makes you fat because the average Diet Coke drinker is fatter than the average Coke drinker. But it’s really just because skinny people don’t worry about drinking calories.

Most people don’t switch from meat to nuts and legumes, they switch to baked goods.

There is also no scientific evidence whatsoever that switching to plant-based diets is good for your health. You should read outlive by Dr. Peter Atilla. As he points out, the only thing we know for sure is too many calories is bad. For almost anything else, it’s impossible to tease out correlation from causation.

Re: H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

#243

Post by mattmaroon »

triceratops wrote: post #156
someplaceguy wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> half of the planet is overweight/obese, I think we could slow down a bit tbh I don't think half of the planet is overweight or obese due to meat consumption. If anything, take away the meat (or make it more expensive) and it'd probably lead to even more obesity.

Middle Ages peasants ate meat rarely. They were not obese.

They also starved to death frequently, and died of a lot of diseases that we now survive easily, so by your logic, I should eat more meat.

Re: H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

#244

Post by 2024throwaway »

slowmovintarget wrote: post #215
2024throwaway wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a valid argument and not at all reductive. Obviously grass is the only plant available to humans to eat. /s

"...eating what the animal would eat..." There's reason that life on Earth exists in a food chain. In this case many of the animals humans eat consume and digest things we cannot. This particular discussion was about cattle and humans deriving nutrition from the milk they produce and the meat they yield. From that perspective, cows and steers as intermediaries provide such a distinct advantage that genetic mutation t…

Alright, fair. But this last comment was far more insightful and thoughtful than your initial flippant dismissal.

Re: H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

#245

Post by ceejayoz »

bluGill wrote: post #241
ceejayoz wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe it should be controversial. Why should "huffing aerosolized pathogenic virus/bacteria in an enclosed space can be bad for you" be controversial?

the bictures shown were not an enclosed space. If we grant an enclosed space then we can also apply air filters.

> the bictures shown were not an enclosed space.

Milking parlors tend to be pretty enclosed, and dairy farms being all enclosed was your original claim. Even the ones that let cows out to pasture or use external feed lots may have barns for winter, bad weather, safety at night, etc.

> If we grant an enclosed space then we can also apply air filters.

We could barely be bothered for COVID, let alone here.

Re: H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

#246

Post by Izkata »

triceratops wrote: post #183
someplaceguy wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That means the obesity isn't due to meat or a lack of meat, per se. It's the diet outside of the meat. So... if you take the meat out what does that leave you with?

Who orders just fries and a Coke? People eat junk food because it tastes good. Period. Not because they didn't get enough meat or some BS like that. Meat-eaters eat fries. Vegetarians eat fries. Everyone eats fries. They're delicious. If you take the meat out there's a whole world of nutritious and delicious foods out there. You just have to broaden your culinary horizons. I'm not even a vegetarian or vegan, have no…

> Who orders just fries and a Coke?

Me as a kid. Best parts of the meal.

Re: H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

#247

Post by Izkata »

2024throwaway wrote: post #244
slowmovintarget wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...eating what the animal would eat..." There's reason that life on Earth exists in a food chain. In this case many of the animals humans eat consume and digest things we cannot. This particular discussion was about cattle and humans deriving nutrition from the milk they produce and the meat they yield. From that perspective, cows and steers as intermediaries provide such a distinct advantage that genetic mutation t…

Alright, fair. But this last comment was far more insightful and thoughtful than your initial flippant dismissal.

Didn't look flippant to me, it was a very direct response to the other person saying we should eat what cows eat instead.

I guess it could be seen that way to someone who doesn't know cows mostly eat grass?

Re: H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

#248

Post by jvanderbot »

coryfklein wrote: post #201
jvanderbot wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe you're joking, but if not, it's about tradeoffs and Pareto optimal solutions. Lifestyles and civilization doesn't significantly change if we all halve or eliminate need for factory animal farms in developed countries.

Isn't meat, like, a significant part of most people's diets?

Most people? No not by a long shot. Most Americans? Maybe.

Re: H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

#249

Post by defrost »

ceejayoz wrote: post #137
sandworm101 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Of course factory farming is an aggravating factor for the spread of diseases. Of some diseases. It also prevents other diseases. Isolating animal species, specifically separating their waste, prevents cross-contamination. Google the stories of people getting parasites from lettuce grown on a "small organic farm" downhill from the pig sty. Want to eat raw lettuce and undercooked steak without getting sick? Those p…

> Want to eat raw lettuce and undercooked steak without getting sick? Those privileges come from factory farming techniques. Outbreaks of E. coli, listeria, giardia, etc. are common in factory farmed bagged lettuce. Dole certainly isn't some small artisan operation; https://www.cdc.gov/listeria/outbreaks/packaged-salad-mix-12... https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/08/16/ecoli-str... "'There are more and more…

> Dole certainly isn't some small artisan operation

Just for general interest, they've got quite the colonial banana rebulic oligopoly history (in surges).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dole_plc

The OG Dole brothers were part of breaking the back of traditional rule in Hawaii.

No comment or implication here other than, gosh, history heh?

Re: H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread

#250

Post by mattmaroon »

3l3ktr4 wrote: post #81

It's crazy to see people denying that (meat) factory farming is a problem. You'd expect most of the public of this website to be rationalists in one way or another. Of course factory farming is an aggravating factor for the spread of diseases. Of course we can thrive with less meat consumption or none. How is that even a question?

It’s not a question, we can. I don’t think anyone here said we couldn’t.

But it’s also not a question of if we’re going to, we won’t. Meat consumption goes up a little every year (on average) and we’ve known these things for a long time, so clearly we’re not convinced.

As to the benefits and drawbacks of factory farming, there are a lot of both. It’s overly-simplistic to call it a problem.

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