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Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

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Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#241
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cloud computing and AI technology is at the heart of the modern battlefield. Let's say it was a speech by the Google Palestine director in charge of selling cloud computing and AI technology to the military wing of Hamas, at a conference where a Hamas spokesman was also giving a speech. Would you also consider there to be no political connection there?

If you support the Palestinian peoples and the cause for peace or one of the various proposed solutions for long term peace, there’s no problem. Debate and differing opinions are expected. Hamas though is a terrorist organization. Internationally recognized as such almost universally. They started this war with rape, murder, and kidnapping of innocent civilians. If you do business with them you’re breaking the law. I…

> Hamas though is a terrorist organization. Internationally recognized as such almost universally.

I have to correct you on the latter because these details matter. According to the Wikipedia page about it [0], it is designated as a terrorist group by Israel, USA and the 5 eyes, the European Union organization, Japan, Argentina and Paraguay. That is essentially Israel, USA and countries that are under direct American influence through NATO, which is far from "almost universally", and really is a smaller fraction of countries in the United Nations.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do not need to act in favor of something if you don't want to publicly oppose it. You can quietly do a shoddy job, for example. But if you value professionalism over human life... I don't really have much to comment on.

I work according to my contract. Nothing more, nothing less. If you don't know what being a professional means, I don't know what to say.

I suppose the only similarity between us in this regard is that if we had to choose between humanity and professionalism, neither of us would have a doubt.

Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would a big tech company be hosting an event with a state committing genocide? That (and working with said regime) is the problem, not people protesting. It's not possible to be a consumer brand and support Israel. The world is too divided and it's not getting any less so.

I think the problem is that folks look at things in a bizarre black and white manner and see it as either 1.) Israel has every right to defend itself from further terrorist attacks and isn't doing anything wrong, or 2.) Israel has no right to retaliate at all. I think the more moderate view is that Israel suffered a heinous terrorist attack perpetrated by a terrorist group in power. Israel has a right to defend their…

> we've had genocide in Cambodia, Serbia, [...]

Just to correct you, the genocide was in Bosnia, not Serbia, as a culmination of years of ethnic cleansing of the muslim (and to a smaller extent the ethnic Croat) population of Bosnia by the Serbian ethnic group during the period of 1992-1995.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_genocide

Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#244
post #8

>“This behavior is not okay, _regardless of the issue,_ and the employee was terminated for violating our policies.” There are some issues that are worth speaking up about. There are some issues that are worth being fired over.

[flagged]

Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never suggested the employee wasn't allowed to speak their mind. I'm just saying that the person should fully expect to be fired for that sort of behavior, and take that into consideration. There is a time and place, and work is not it. Don't crap where you eat, etc. If you did that in my house, I'd (politely) kick you out. You're welcome to disagree with me, but if you're inside my house then it's on my terms.

If you earnestly believe there's no important distinction between employees of a multinational corporation and a guest in your private home then I don't think there's any more possible room for discussion. I am curious though, in what specific context would you "defend to the death" my right to free speech? It seems strange to be willing to offer your life for something with so many terms and conditions applied.

> If you earnestly believe there's no important distinction between employees of a multinational corporation and a guest in your private home then I don't think there's any more possible room for discussion.

There are important distinctions between these two concepts, but not for the sake of the argument here. Freedom of speech is about the relationship between citizens and their government -- not citizens and each other. Google is simply a corp owned by citizens -- who have rights, over the property (the company) they collectively own. These citizens are free (within rule of law) to set the rules in their house -- just like I am free (within rule of law) to set the rules in my house.

Citizens have freedom of association -- I am not forced to house people I don't want to house. I can kick people out of my house for being disruptive, threatening me, or otherwise disagreeing with my rules. Google, as a private business, owned by citizens, should not be forced to employ disruptive people. Again -- there are laws surrounding this -- Google can't do whatever they want -- but I would hope we could agree that Google should be allowed to fire disruptive employees.

> I am curious though, in what specific context would you "defend to the death" my right to free speech? It seems strange to be willing to offer your life for something with so many terms and conditions applied.

This is a simplification of the necessity of free speech. And that this is a principle worth shedding blood over. It's a summary of a great many liberal guiding principles that founded this country (America). I would think this is common knowledge, but I keep forgetting that it is a principle that must be re-taught to each generation of Americans.

The right to free speech is about preventing from the government from throwing you in jail or having you murdered for saying something unpopular -- as happens in places like Russia or China. Our constitutional guarantee of free speech is meaningless if the government is allowed to pick and choose the persons to whom they apply. This applies to all opinions, even those we despise -- because once we allow the censoring of some opinion we have opened the door to the eventual censoring of dissent -- which inevitably leads to authoritarianism etc... Without freedom speech, we have nothing. To me, this is a principle and a right that is worth fighting wars over, worth dying for.

Freedom of speech means free exchange of ideas. We're here in HN talking freely, we're listening to each other -- and tolerating each others ideas, even if we don't agree with them. This is a good thing, as the alternative usually leads to people in the outgroup being jailed, and/or mobs, weapons and all sorts of violence.

This is why we defend things like “peoples rights to say racist shit”... because it's a form of self-defense. If I want to be able to hold my own opinions without fear of government reprisal, then I have to grant you that same freedom and protection. I need to fight not just for my right to free speech, but yours -- or the freedom is meaningless. We have to tolerate each other, or we lose everything.

That said: all speech isn't free. There are necessary limits on free speech. You can't falsely accuse others of crimes. You can't libel or defame others falsely. You can't incite to riot or insurrection. You can't cause false panic. You can't lie to the police or report false disasters. There are consequences for speech -- you can't just say whatever you want and expect the rest of us citizens to accommodate you. No one has to accommodate you -- we simply agree tolerate each others beliefs.

I defend a way of life that protects your ability to have opinions I disagree with, without fear of government reprisal. What your fellow citizens and neighbors think of you however, is largely between you and them after that point.

Google is not a government. Google is a company that is collectively owned by citizens. Google has rights as well, because the shareholders/owners have rights as citizens, just like you -- and so people can't just run around their company saying whatever they want without fear or consequences. Any more than you can run around my house saying whatever you want. I say this, having no love of Google. But if Google can't defend it's right to remove disruptive employees, then it's only a matter of time before I lose the ability to throw people out of my house, eventually leading to things like forced quartering of soldiers, etc.

The statement "defend to the death" etc means that I'm willing to fight a war and potentially die over this way of life. I would hope that those here whose views I disagree with but am tolerating would also be willing to give their lives for my rights as well. And to those here who call a belief like this virtue signaling -- well I feel sad for you and those who would be forced to live in the kind of world you propose building.

At this point, I'm happy to agree to disagree with you.

Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If enough employees want it to be so, a company can certainly be coerced into becoming more democratic.

Coerced is the operative word here. Employers don't have to accommodate your political beliefs (outside of what the law requires). If you and your friends have enough power, you can try and wield it. Buy shares and get your voice heard at the stockholders meeting. Your mileage may vary. Not everyone has the coercive power of say, Elon Musk. This person sacrificed their job to draw attention to their pet issue. What d…

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Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#248

Lately it seems that more and more rank-and-file employees believe that a company has some sort of moral obligation to take their political opinions into consideration. Corporations aren't democracies. Unless you're an executive or high ranking decision maker, you're along for the ride. I don't ask my kids for their opinion about my home budget, what house I should buy, etc. So it is at work. Expecting a company to k…

I can't tell if people are desperate or delusional. > Expecting a company to kowtow to your belief system betrays a conceited/pretentious view of the world around you. I agree and I would call that delusional. On the desparate side, the trust in government and faith in the democratic system are in shambles. I'm not even sure a frustrated Google Engineer can see the bottom of the despair issue. People do not believe t…

> On the desparate side, the trust in government and faith in the democratic system are in shambles. I'm not even sure a frustrated Google Engineer can see the bottom of the despair issue. People do not believe their local, state, or federal governments can do a anything, particularly for the common good.

I get it... the angst is real... things are wrong and feel like they are spiraling... systems are failing us, we no longer trust each other, or that there is a common good. Because people can't put their finger on what's causing it, they lash out in unpredictable ways, like this. This widespread disaffection will likely get much worse before it gets better.

That said -- I still believe in free speech and rule of law. No government stopped this employee from speaking their mind -- and they weren't jailed -- this is a good thing. And Google, a company owned by citizens, whose event was disrupted -- should be free to fire disruptive employees. The fact they did so is also a good thing.

What I'm saying is that what happened here isn't the problem -- but to your point it is a symptom of something wider that is going on. A malaise/cancer that seems to have taken over and is rapidly metastasizing.

Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#249
post #244
post #8

>“This behavior is not okay, _regardless of the issue,_ and the employee was terminated for violating our policies.” There are some issues that are worth speaking up about. There are some issues that are worth being fired over.

[flagged]

I am pro-peace.

Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#250
post #244
post #8

>“This behavior is not okay, _regardless of the issue,_ and the employee was terminated for violating our policies.” There are some issues that are worth speaking up about. There are some issues that are worth being fired over.

[flagged]

Neither side is doing good
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