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Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

research.mozilla.org

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Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#241

Post by executesorder66 »

ljm wrote: post #186
pyrophane wrote: post #180

I've been trying Edge lately because I wanted to see if its "efficiency mode" would produce any noticeable difference in the battery life I experienced on my laptop. They've really made it almost impossible to use as a privacy-respecting browser that lets you pick your search engine. There are a very large number of "on by default" settings that I had to change to turn of things like "Microsoft Rewards" and "creator…

I would genuinely hate to be an engineer working on the edge team. It feels like building a decent browser comes entirely secondary to moving the needle on marketing and growth targets. Not the only situation where it seems your Windows-running computer is basically held hostage by MBAs wanting to boost Bing’s numbers.

That's why microsoft only hires people who fail any ethics test you can imagine, and who pass any asshole test that you can give them.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#242

Post by executesorder66 »

baxuz wrote: post #227
jeroenhd wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if devs on the Edge team gets some kind of sadistic pleasure out of ruining Edge. It used to be good for a sweet, short few months, but it's beyond saving now. There's no way the devs behind the Edge UX still believe they're improving the browser. I can imagine getting sort of a thrill out of suggesting something stupid like "let's steal ALL OF CHROME'S BROWSING HISTORY, then CLOSE CHROME, and OPEN EDGE and…

I sincerely doubt it's the devs coming up with these ideas and pitching them to management.

I don't work for microsoft, but I and everyone else knows that that is the kind of shit you'll be working on (who suggested it is irrelevant) long before you'd even do an interview with them.

Microsoft employees are certified assholes, and they know it.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#243

Post by evilduck »

bmitc wrote: post #230
evilduck wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? What does it bring to the table over Chromium once you disable all the Microsoft nonsense?

Because I don't like Firefox and dislike anything to do with Google. Google also plays all sorts of dirty tricks to try and get you to download Chrome. I primarily use Windows because I get Windows plus Linux. For example, I have Ubuntu and Nix running through WSL. Apple also plays dirty tricks and has all sorts of nonsense, they're just better at getting away with it. In general, I just use the browser that's "nativ…

Ok… lots of soapboxing and tangents without answering anything.

> Edge does have some nice features

Such as? This is what I want to know. What value to you as an end user does Edge provide that makes it worth tolerating the nonsense?

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#244

Post by notfed »

notfed wrote: post #199
watters wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which specific idea(s) presented do you believe has its merits undermined by this lack of impartiality?

Erm, maybe this idea: > This report was commissioned by Mozilla

Point being: these researchers were chosen by, and paid by Mozilla to do this. The researchers have a strong incentive to be biased; to leave out details; to p-hack. Though they claim to be neutral, no human is capable of being unbiased, especially when his paycheck depends on it.

I have nothing but utmost respect for Mozilla and these researchers, but the paper needs to be read not as facts, but merely conjectures, to be verified by other more neutral parties.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#245

Post by amznburn »

baxuz wrote: post #228
pandacake wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "They've really made it almost impossible to use as a privacy-respecting browser that lets you pick your search engine." Brave Browser let's you customize.

I can't take a crypto-shilling browser seriously. They lost all respect from me the day they added that feature.

crypto-shilling? you can easily enable/disable the wallet feature.

no offense, but this is an ignorant comment. we're in 2024. come join us.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#246

Post by tristan957 »

pyrophane wrote: post #215
pandacake wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "They've really made it almost impossible to use as a privacy-respecting browser that lets you pick your search engine." Brave Browser let's you customize.

Yeah, I'll probably wind up with Vivaldi or something else I'm not thinking of now. Opera maybe? Brave seems fine as well.

Why not Firefox?

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#247

Post by 9029 »

6c696e7578 wrote: post #98
epolanski wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WSL2, power toys and hands down the best window management of any OS, I hate working on my MBP just due to the difficulty of managing different windows and aligning them on the same desktop.

Probably seems weird to you, but I've never got on with the Windows UI. There's too many things that steal focus. I've been XFCE for too many years now, but it doesn't change significantly that I find I have to invest time learning what's changed. There used to be a 'tile windows' since windows 2.0 or something like that, but it did just that, splatted the windows to take up all the space. One thing I like about X11…

> alt-dragging

In case you hadn't come across it yet, there's a third-party piece of software called AltDrag [0] that lets you do it. It's kind of a must have for me whenever I have to use windows. Yes this should just be builtin

[0] https://stefansundin.github.io/altdrag/

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#249

Post by bmitc »

evilduck wrote: post #243
bmitc wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I don't like Firefox and dislike anything to do with Google. Google also plays all sorts of dirty tricks to try and get you to download Chrome. I primarily use Windows because I get Windows plus Linux. For example, I have Ubuntu and Nix running through WSL. Apple also plays dirty tricks and has all sorts of nonsense, they're just better at getting away with it. In general, I just use the browser that's "nativ…

Ok… lots of soapboxing and tangents without answering anything. > Edge does have some nice features Such as? This is what I want to know. What value to you as an end user does Edge provide that makes it worth tolerating the nonsense?

Okay ... sorry? I was just talking.

You can go read the Edge feature list if you're bothered by it. For one, I don't tolerate the nonsense. It can all be disabled, so I disable it. Secondly, I don't think Edge is the "best" browser. I don't think there is such a thing, and I didn't compare it to others.

Things that I like are the Microsoft Defender SmartScreen for checking downloads and websites (which has caught me, e.g., because Imgur packaged malware when I downloaded an image I had uploaded to my own profile) in addition to the built-in Microsoft Defender, collections, the web capture feature which makes it nice to be able to capture a screenshot of an entire page, the tab grouping, browser casting to another device, workspaces, and the syncing that actually works. My password manager also integrates quite nicely. Now, before people respond with "but Chrome/Firefox does this" or god forbid "you can do all that in Emacs", I never made a comparison. They probably have similar and also features that separate themselves. I just said Edge is a good browser, which it is, underneath all the marketing and advertising shenanigans that Microsoft is idiotically throwing around within Edge. The default Edge is indeed a very annoying browser. But, like I already said, underneath all that is a quite good, professional browser that makes it easy to do real work., and it's not all that much work to disable all of that.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#250

Post by Jenda_ »

jeroenhd wrote: post #221
ARandomerDude wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always think this, then remember I also like sound, Bluetooth, and low-power sleep. Maybe 2025 will be the year of the Linux desktop.

All three work flawlessly for me. It takes either luck or looking up known incompatibilities before purchasing a laptop, but it's no longer 2008. Not buying hardware from certain vendors (Nvidia) helps improve your chances. The lack of hibernation with an encrypted system is an annoying problem, though. There's a good reason it doesn't work, and the explanation has made me doubt other hibernation implementations, but…

> The lack of hibernation with an encrypted system is an annoying problem, though.

I don't understand. Hibernation to an encrypted swap partition (and even to a swap file on an encrypted rootfs) works normally.

> Not buying hardware from certain vendors (Nvidia) helps improve your chances.

nVidia just works if you accept the proprietary driver. On the other hand, with AMD, you get fun like this: https://www.wezm.net/v2/posts/2020/linux-amdgpu-pixel-format.... Of course, if you don't need high GPU power, use Intel integrated GPU, which works the best.

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