Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US • Hacker News Board

Re: Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US

#241

Post by Robotbeat » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 5:57 AM UTC

pxeboot wrote: post #72

rappatic wrote: post #60

The article talks about range concerns as if they're simply incorrect or ill-founded: > Niedermeyer said that while an electric car can meet most people's driving needs, it struggles with edge cases like road trips because of the need to recharge. Since Americans have been promised a one-to-one substitute for their gas cars, this seems like a failure; an EV should be able to do everything a gas car can. This idea per…

My next car will be an EV. I have no concern about the advertised range. The real worry is what the range will look like in 5-10 years when it is cold out.

I've got an 11 year old Model S. The range is reduced somewhat, but overall it's fine. Fine when it's cold out, too, you just set it to preheat before you go. Plug it in overnight.

Re: Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US

#242

Post by screye » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 5:57 AM UTC

rappatic wrote: post #60

The article talks about range concerns as if they're simply incorrect or ill-founded: > Niedermeyer said that while an electric car can meet most people's driving needs, it struggles with edge cases like road trips because of the need to recharge. Since Americans have been promised a one-to-one substitute for their gas cars, this seems like a failure; an EV should be able to do everything a gas car can. This idea per…

I disagree. The sustainable alternative to EVs is hybrids, not gas guzzlers.

Hybrids can be smaller, cheaper, lighter and gentler on the grid. Each of these matter.

Heavier cars cause significantly higher road wear [1], particulate pollution [2] and occupy more space. EVs by necessity, are heavier. This is especially evident in America's favorite product categories : SUVs and Trucks. The Ford- F150 lightning is 1.5x heavier than its gas powered brother.

Mazda is able to fit in a hybrid rotary [3] range-extender in the MX-30 REV, saving about 800 lbs from having a smaller battery. The rotary only serves as battery charger, so you get all the benefits of an EV and none of its negatives.

Full-EVs are solving a problem that doesn't need solving. I respect them as a premium market segment option. But, massively subsidizing them with a 8000$ tax credit & virtue signaling makes no sense. The infrastructure is decades out from being there. There will be an eventual transition to EVs over the next 30 years as energy density and grid issues are solved. But, we should wait for it to happen organically.

As of 2023, EVs are not the sustainable solution.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_power_law

[2] https://dynomight.net/tires/

[3] Doritoes are back baybee.

Re: Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US

#243

Post by Robotbeat » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 5:59 AM UTC

SkyPuncher wrote: post #217

rappatic wrote: post #60

The article talks about range concerns as if they're simply incorrect or ill-founded: > Niedermeyer said that while an electric car can meet most people's driving needs, it struggles with edge cases like road trips because of the need to recharge. Since Americans have been promised a one-to-one substitute for their gas cars, this seems like a failure; an EV should be able to do everything a gas car can. This idea per…

I almost bought an EV, but road trips became a blocker. I have family about 4 hours drive away. Outside of my town and my destination, there are 3 chargers that can charge an EV in a reasonable amount of time (less than 2 hours). They're all Electrify America, which are pretty unreliable. I'd have to stop at each and every one of them to ensure I could actually make the four hour drive. Unbelievably annoying.

I'm surprised there are 3 Electrify America chargers but no Tesla Superchargers. Then again, a 300-400 mile Tesla can do the trip in one go (charge at your family's place).

Re: Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US

#244

Post by zihotki » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 5:59 AM UTC

charcircuit wrote: post #55

femto wrote: post #47

Why don't electric cars use replaceable battery modules with a standard form factor? Advantages would include: 1) It allows the battery to be easily replaced as the car gets older. 2) With a suitable generic form factor, it would allow batteries to be upgraded as technology changes. 3) It would allow people to only populate enough battery slots for their daily needs. Communing to work: you only need to insert a few b…

I am not sure there are many people who want to swap out batteries when they weigh over 1000 pounds. Inserting a battery would require something to help carry and insert it which makes it have enormous user friction which makes it a non starter for most people. Not many people even want to swap out phone batteries despite those batteries being easy to carry.

You are probably thinking about the whole battery. But if you consider that it can be split into multiple modules, the weight of a module will not be that big.

Benefits of such design will be: * lower operating weight since you wont need many modules for short trips * lower registration weight of a vehicle * the tires and road won't be damaged as much * one can swap modules at gas stations instead of charging and waiting * and the modules can be used as part of a house battery

In fact there is an european startup for microcars https://www.helixx.tech/ where they explore similar idea.

Re: Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US

#245

Post by kurthr » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 6:00 AM UTC

vladgur wrote: post #210

jandrewrogers wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is even worse for people like me, despite having a charger in my home. I almost never drive short distances, I walk everywhere locally. When I do drive, it is very long distances, and in those cases range and refill time counts for a lot. On their best days EVs have inferior range and in many conditions they have markedly inferior range. Add on top of that the lengthy recharge time (topping off a gas tank is idea…

I was about to call BS on your 650 requirement until I realized it was in km :) My 2020 Camry hybrid LE has a real world range of 800km or 500mi as I call it ;)

400mi range seems a bit overkill since I'm up for a break after 4hours of driving, but 300mi seems like the lower end of acceptable, if you don't have another car for trips. I don't want to have to do some special charge for a <3 hour roundtrip, and if you use only 80-20% that gets you 90mi each way while still charging at home.

Re: Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US

#246

Post by petre » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 6:01 AM UTC

> buyers in Norway "tend to be in higher income brackets, often using their EV as a second car."

They've got it backwards: buyers in Norway are using the EV as the first car and their older ICE vehicle as the second car, for when they want to do longer trips. If they share driving time between cars, they're still going to drive less in the ICE car.

Re: Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US

#247

Post by stetrain » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 6:03 AM UTC

Article does not support the title, and I assume the source title has been changed since it no longer matches the HN title.

> Sure, sales of EVs keep going up — a record 300,000 cars sold in the US in the third quarter of 2023 were electric — but the pace of adoption has markedly slowed, and analysts have suggested the country is no longer on track to hit the government's sales targets.

Re: Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US

#248

Post by anovikov » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 6:04 AM UTC

Sure it was approached not in the way it had to be. It requires a long-term commitment - longer than duration of one administration. And it requires actual mandates, like we do in EU. Simply put, there are norms of how many electric cars should be sold and on the road in every country every year, and countries face steep fines if they don't. There is no way to object apart from leaving the EU which means instant economic and social death. So things move along quite well here. It might look like socialism, but hell yeah, if it works, why not?

U.S. needs to have state by state mandates which are actually mandatory and provide irrevocable mechanisms to maintain them regardless of administration in power, it needs high tax on gas (make it more expensive than in EU - maybe $10/gallon? because people make more), and ban or extreme high taxes on large cars, especially large gas cars. That progressively increase as share of EVs increase.

Median age of a new car buyer is 53. These people are not going to voluntarily change. They need to be forced to.

Re: Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US

#249

Post by jitl » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 6:04 AM UTC

darknavi wrote: post #127

jitl wrote: post #89

The electric offerings from most companies just don’t seem “there” yet. I don’t want a Tesla because AirPlay and adjustable aircon grates are non-negotiable for me, but the alternatives just don’t seem like a good bet yet. Hyundai is compelling, but most brands are offering electrified versions of non-EV platforms. An EV platform with low drag is much better, but outside of Tesla and Hyundai no one seems to be shippi…

> I don’t want a Tesla because AirPlay and adjustable aircon grates are non-negotiable for me, but the alternatives just don’t seem like a good bet yet. Teslas have adjustable aircon vents, but only through the touch screen (at least on newer models). You can definitely aim/split them.

Yeah I know but like… it’s so bad. It’s the only car I’ve ever driven where it feels unsafe to point the aircon at my hands. Completely unnecessary and probably expensive digital mis-feature.

Re: Fewer people are buying electric cars in the US

#250

Post by ralonso » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 6:04 AM UTC

electrondood wrote: post #226

rappatic wrote: post #60

The article talks about range concerns as if they're simply incorrect or ill-founded: > Niedermeyer said that while an electric car can meet most people's driving needs, it struggles with edge cases like road trips because of the need to recharge. Since Americans have been promised a one-to-one substitute for their gas cars, this seems like a failure; an EV should be able to do everything a gas car can. This idea per…

I don't see how this is based in reality. You're running low on gas? You go find a node in the gas station network. Battery running down? Go find a Supercharger station. If you're in a Tesla, it will even route to these automatically. It will tell you in advance how many chargers are operational, and how many are occupied, and it will reroute to a less busy station if available.

Finding working-as-advertised chargers appears to be hard if not downright impossible. The situation does appear to be a little better if you own a Tesla, but if you own most any other make of EV you're going to have a bad time. From a hard requirement of a third-party app to pay, chargers using cables that do not meet spec, outright broken charging stations, issues with the apps themselves, and so on. Aging Wheels did an excellent video[1] on how frustrating the experience can be.

[1] Aging Wheels - EV Road Trips Suck Now (Except in a Tesla) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92w5doU68D8