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Gentoo goes Binary

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Re: Gentoo goes Binary

#241

Post by Dalewyn »

gary_0 wrote: post #223
Sesse__ wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Debian, the so-called "universal operating system" just dropped 32-bit x86 support. This is imprecise at best. There was a meeting where the release team concluded that most likely, there will be no _installer_ and _kernel_ support for 32-bit x86 at some unspecified point in the future. (At the current point in time, both are still delivered and fully supported.) In particular, you can still run multi-arch 32-bit/6…

Does Intel or anyone still sell 32-bit x86 chips for non-embedded use? A quick Google was inconclusive, although it seems that while Intel sells low-power x86 chips under the "Pentium Silver" brand, they all seem to be 64-bit now. So eventually more and more old x86 boxes will be decommissioned, and 32-bit x86 will be dead as a desktop platform, no? Which might mean people who want to run old proprietary 32-bit games…

One of Linux's oldest arguments for using it is that it can be used to revitalize old hardware that other, newer software might not properly utilize.

If one were to rephrase it in today's language, Linux serve(d) to reduce e-waste.

So, yeah, it kind of is the distro's problem if they are moving away and against that mantra now.

Re: Gentoo goes Binary

#242

Post by tedunangst »

Sesse__ wrote: post #226
gary_0 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does Intel or anyone still sell 32-bit x86 chips for non-embedded use? A quick Google was inconclusive, although it seems that while Intel sells low-power x86 chips under the "Pentium Silver" brand, they all seem to be 64-bit now. So eventually more and more old x86 boxes will be decommissioned, and 32-bit x86 will be dead as a desktop platform, no? Which might mean people who want to run old proprietary 32-bit games…

I believe the last x86-compatible chips without 64-bit support were launched around 2006 or so (Intel Core; Core 2 had 64-bit support), a couple of years after Opteron initially came out. It's not really clear how long the Linux kernel itself will continue supporting such CPUs. The architecture certainly isn't something anyone really cares about (e.g. Meltdown wasn't patched for several months after it went public an…

There were Atom CPUs that weren't supposed to be 64-bit for a while after that.

Re: Gentoo goes Binary

#243

Post by bdavbdav »

Dalewyn wrote: post #241
gary_0 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does Intel or anyone still sell 32-bit x86 chips for non-embedded use? A quick Google was inconclusive, although it seems that while Intel sells low-power x86 chips under the "Pentium Silver" brand, they all seem to be 64-bit now. So eventually more and more old x86 boxes will be decommissioned, and 32-bit x86 will be dead as a desktop platform, no? Which might mean people who want to run old proprietary 32-bit games…

One of Linux's oldest arguments for using it is that it can be used to revitalize old hardware that other, newer software might not properly utilize. If one were to rephrase it in today's language, Linux serve(d) to reduce e-waste. So, yeah, it kind of is the distro's problem if they are moving away and against that mantra now.

There’s a crossover point though where the effort to support it is larger than the supply of newer hardware coming through. With the last x86 deaktop chips coming out in ~2006, I would bet there are very few viable use cases left. That’s 6 3-year cycles past.

Re: Gentoo goes Binary

#244

Post by Tommstein »

gtirloni wrote: post #170
connorgutman wrote: post #166

Disclaimer: I am a die-hard Gentoo fan. The appeal of Gentoo is not compiling everything from source, it's having the freedom to install anything you want on nearly any hardware all with stellar documentation and minimal roadblocks. Want to run Enlightenment with OpenRC and NetworkManager on a laptop from 2008? Install Gentoo! Want ZFS as root on a smart refrigerator? Install Gentoo! Want a vanilla Gnome + SystemD in…

I feel like the Gentoo userbase has been stolen in part by Arch these days.

Exactly my case. Used to use Gentoo, got tired of every other update breaking the system, was told on IRC that if I didn't like "free" updates (because apparently my time and serenity have no value) perpetually breaking the system I could go use something else, and that's exactly what I did. Arch is solid.

Re: Gentoo goes Binary

#245

Post by theamk »

gavinhoward wrote: post #86

Wow...I feel weird. A lot of the comments are saying that they tried Gentoo or used to use it. And here I am, using it as my daily driver and server workhorse. I wonder what makes me different such that Gentoo is the best for me. And I am not going to enable binary packages.

Do you have machines which "just work"? Not a daily driver machine or server that you mess with every week, but something you set up long time ago and that has been working even since. Something that you may only log in few timers per year, if that.

I stopped using Gentoo when I got my made my first "production" system: I made it, people started using it, and it was "done" - as in, there were no more any reasons to log into it daily, or even weekly. I'd still want my security updates and very very rarely there would be a new feature that required new package, but otherwise I wanted system to be steady. And Gentoo is a horrible fit for this usecase - even on my personal desktop where I updated weekly I had emerge build failures practically every time; and a system which might not be updated for months would be even worse. So I went to Debian, and it was good (especially with unattended upgrades), and I eventually switched all my machines to it.

If you use Gentoo, do you have any machines that you don't tinker with weekly? How often do you update them, and how often do you need manual intervention to finish the update?

Re: Gentoo goes Binary

#246

Post by TillE »

galleywest200 wrote: post #164
BSDobelix wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

~Gentoo is probably the most installed "Desktop"-Linux in the world -> ChromeBooks https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/ChromeOS

> ChromeOS is built using Portage, Gentoo's package manager, and Gentoo-based chroots. ChromeOS uses the upstart init system. Sounds like they are just using parts of it and not Gentoo itself.

Portage is like 90% of what makes Gentoo Gentoo.

Re: Gentoo goes Binary

#247

Post by pabs3 »

connorgutman wrote: post #230
Sesse__ wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Debian, the so-called "universal operating system" just dropped 32-bit x86 support. This is imprecise at best. There was a meeting where the release team concluded that most likely, there will be no _installer_ and _kernel_ support for 32-bit x86 at some unspecified point in the future. (At the current point in time, both are still delivered and fully supported.) In particular, you can still run multi-arch 32-bit/6…

Not really the point I was trying to make. Gentoo still fully supports obscure architectures such as IA64 and PowerPC 32-bit while Debian dropped both back in 2018 and 2020. Hell, not only does Gentoo still support them but the handbooks are still updated regularly. When that unspecified point in the future comes knocking for 32-bit x86 Gentoo will continue to be a rock for fun devices like my Lenovo x60 with librebo…

The Linux kernel just deleted IA64, so that support won't last for long, unless Gentoo keeps ancient kernel versions? Debian still has unofficial ia64 and powerpc ports too.

Re: Gentoo goes Binary

#248

Post by withinboredom »

bdavbdav wrote: post #243
Dalewyn wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of Linux's oldest arguments for using it is that it can be used to revitalize old hardware that other, newer software might not properly utilize. If one were to rephrase it in today's language, Linux serve(d) to reduce e-waste. So, yeah, it kind of is the distro's problem if they are moving away and against that mantra now.

There’s a crossover point though where the effort to support it is larger than the supply of newer hardware coming through. With the last x86 deaktop chips coming out in ~2006, I would bet there are very few viable use cases left. That’s 6 3-year cycles past.

I have seen many Windows 98 machines in the last ten years. I saw one just last week connected to a giant robot in a factory. So, if you are looking for use-cases for 32-bit, there's the fact that some giant machinery relies on computers that will never be updated.

Last I heard, even the last BlockBuster in the US is still using old PC's to run their DOS software. They harvest parts from old computers sold on e-bay. So, if you have any old computers laying around, they might be worth something these days.

Re: Gentoo goes Binary

#249

Post by Dalewyn »

bdavbdav wrote: post #243
Dalewyn wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of Linux's oldest arguments for using it is that it can be used to revitalize old hardware that other, newer software might not properly utilize. If one were to rephrase it in today's language, Linux serve(d) to reduce e-waste. So, yeah, it kind of is the distro's problem if they are moving away and against that mantra now.

There’s a crossover point though where the effort to support it is larger than the supply of newer hardware coming through. With the last x86 deaktop chips coming out in ~2006, I would bet there are very few viable use cases left. That’s 6 3-year cycles past.

I have a number of old computers lying around the house in closets, some 32-bit only. Linux not running on them anymore is actually pretty annoying since, as I said, that used to be one of its oldest mantras.

Outside of the enterprise crowd, Linux's next biggest audience are the tinkerers and hobbyists with too much free time and ancient hardware well past their Use By date. What a time it is that we can legitimately say it's better to run some version of Windows instead of Linux on them now.

Re: Gentoo goes Binary

#250

Post by gavinhoward »

theamk wrote: post #245
gavinhoward wrote: post #86

Wow...I feel weird. A lot of the comments are saying that they tried Gentoo or used to use it. And here I am, using it as my daily driver and server workhorse. I wonder what makes me different such that Gentoo is the best for me. And I am not going to enable binary packages.

Do you have machines which "just work"? Not a daily driver machine or server that you mess with every week, but something you set up long time ago and that has been working even since. Something that you may only log in few timers per year, if that. I stopped using Gentoo when I got my made my first "production" system: I made it, people started using it, and it was "done" - as in, there were no more any reasons to l…

I use mine daily and update them about weekly, yes.

Leaving a Gentoo system is, as you say, not something you should do. I'm lucky that I don't have that.

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